chipchucker5
339 posts
Joined 02/2008
Dakaj, in the AQ hand, I would be calling before I'd be folding. He is going to be bluffing some of the time, and we have almost 30% equity vs his value 4betting range. I would pretty much always be 5betting AQ as played, particularly given our image so far which Gosu is def aware of. Yeah, he does have to fold like 45-48% of the time, but one benefit is that after showing that we have such a wide 3bet/5bet range, it enables us to 3bet bluff a wider range which is pretty sweet.
WRT the AQs hand where we get 3bet, you say it's very marginal. I agree a lot of players aren't 3betting a ton vs utg opens, but AQs is just too good to fold against an aggro player. If we're not calling w/ that we're basically never calling w/ any high card hands, which isn't good imo.
Posted over 2 years ago
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chipchucker5
339 posts
Joined 02/2008
Roundcube
25 posts
Joined 02/2008
Lots of spewage and marginal plays for sure and that's good for video purposes to see what you don't get away with
I think a HU player should start out tight with 6max and when they get better reads and an idea of peoples ranges then it's the time to open up. But yeah definitely good video material and not just boring folding and stuff.
Posted over 2 years ago
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DaKaJ
94 posts
Joined 07/2008
Dakaj, in the AQ hand, I would be calling before I'd be folding. He is going to be bluffing some of the time, and we have almost 30% equity vs his value 4betting range. I would pretty much always be 5betting AQ as played, particularly given our image so far which Gosu is def aware of. Yeah, he does have to fold like 45-48% of the time, but one benefit is that after showing that we have such a wide 3bet/5bet range, it enables us to 3bet bluff a wider range which is pretty sweet.
WRT the AQs hand where we get 3bet, you say it's very marginal. I agree a lot of players aren't 3betting a ton vs utg opens, but AQs is just too good to fold against an aggro player. If we're not calling w/ that we're basically never calling w/ any high card hands, which isn't good imo.
Well, I could definitely see calling if the 4-bet was smaller (regs tend to 4-bet smaller and smaller these days) but this one was pretty big, 36 to 96 if I remember correctly so I'm not a big fan of calling here.
5-bet shoving has to be a loosing play here, that guy opens like 15% UTG so you dont want to 3-bet that too much either as you simply run into way too many big hands. I think I'd rather 5-bet ship K2s in BBvsSB situation.
The AQs hand, yeah sure if the guy 3-bets a ton then its very bad to fold; but you just dont know that yet! aggro player? what makes you think that? he has not 3-bet you once yet. The fact that you play very agressively does not mean that people are necessarily going to play super aggro vs you. Actually I play those games day in day out and I'm very confident saying very few regs 3-bet a lot BTNvsUTG, most of the times its 3or4% so you are running into QQ+,AK along with a couple bluffs.
Vs tight 3-bettors like this what do you think of just never calling 3-bets oop and just having a 4-bet or fold strategy? I mean, you dont want to slowplay AA or KK as its clearly best to get it in right there, so I assume you're calling like 88-TT AQ KQs type of hands and am not sure its going to be profitable for you.
The dynamics are soooo much different than COvsBTN,SBvsBB or SBvsBB, I think its best to assume they have a very tight range until they show you otherwise.
Posted over 2 years ago
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Bruut99
18 posts
Joined 06/2008
You people need to play more 6max before making a video. I mean i almost quit after saying you should 3bet the KQo almost always. Problem is you almost always get a 4bet or a fold from my experience. Much much better to keep the fish in with a very decent playable hand.
IMO have one person thats tries to go to 6max from HU chat with an 6max specialist. Tired to see 'i havent played these stakes/format in months' comments from videomakers. Make video's in the games you play.
Posted over 2 years ago
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Bruut99
18 posts
Joined 06/2008
Oh and the 63s hand is played really badly. What valuehands are you betting flop with, checking turn and overshipping river? When you make no-sense lines you will get called a lot at msnl 6max on stars.
Posted over 2 years ago
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Logic of Sense
11 posts
Joined 08/2009
This was really awesome. Both obviously really good players and the constant barrage of questions made for a really dense and useful video. The fact that Syous is a good player but inexperienced in 6max makes for a great dynamic, because it transcends the passive student/omnipotent coach relationship which characterizes some other vids.
I mostly agree with DaKaJ in his analysis of your game; your inexperience with 6 max ranges leads to you playing too loosely/aggressively in certain spots when you're just up against too tight a range. Please keep up the loose/aggressiveness in general though - it creates all kinds of interesting spots and is surely very profitable in these games.
The thing I took most from this vid is that you're constantly thinking about how his range will stand up to multiple barrels, which is something I'm sure a lot of us could improve on; so continued emphasis on that would be great.
Posted over 2 years ago
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Syous
248 posts
Joined 01/2008
bruut - Breathe and relax man. Chipchucker5 is a 6max specialist. If you want me to tighten up and play what I think is perfect 6max poker defined by today's standards, I could definitely go ahead and do that, but that's not very entertaining nor is it educational? How would making a video like that be different from any other 6m video?
I am a heads up player, ranges are going to be very loose in my head until I've got a good grip on it, but that's what this series is for. All mistakes are documented so the HU player who may attack 6m like me doesn't make these mistakes. It's so much more in your benefit for me to make these mistakes. Are you forgetting that this is my money that I'm playing with? It would be beyond retarded if I were just dumping money away without regard towards educational value.
Posted over 2 years ago
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chipchucker5
339 posts
Joined 02/2008
You people need to play more 6max before making a video. I mean i almost quit after saying you should 3bet the KQo almost always. Problem is you almost always get a 4bet or a fold from my experience. Much much better to keep the fish in with a very decent playable hand.
IMO have one person thats tries to go to 6max from HU chat with an 6max specialist. Tired to see 'i havent played these stakes/format in months' comments from videomakers. Make video's in the games you play.
Bruut, I would agree w/ you for the most part if we were in position in this hand. However, being OOP is really tough and w/ out the initiative we're just going to end up check folding the flop really often because as I'm sure you know, we don't connect w/ most flops. I also have to disagree w/ your statement about people almost always 4betting or folding..that's simply not true. People defend plenty with hands like 44-99, ATs, AJo, KTs, KJo, QTs, JTs and even some more speculative hands esp against aggro 3 bettors. And getting a good villain who has position on us to fold isn't necessarily a bad thing since obv him folding means we pick up the dead money out there. Again, if we had position on villain, this would be a different story.
So 3betting does a few things for us.
1. We take the initiative which enables us to maintain aggression postflop and win the pot even when we whiff the flop.
2. A decent amount of the time he gives us the pot immediately and we win the $26 or w/e was out there at the time.
3. We prevent ourselves from getting squeezed.
4. We give the fish a chance to call with hands we have crushed like QTs, KJ etc.
5. We continue to maintain an aggro image which is very beneficial in the long run imho.
Posted over 2 years ago
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lewis
5 posts
Joined 10/2009
Syous
248 posts
Joined 01/2008
lewis - i saw your post
It's not a bad question at all. IMO if we 3bet the btn a lot from the BB/SB and they only 4bet with a decently high frequency, then shoving KQ in my eyes is a profitable move.
But I wouldn't do it in the first 3 4bets, I'd wait for some more evidence that that is what he's doing.
Posted over 2 years ago
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DaKaJ
94 posts
Joined 07/2008
I see somewhat of a contradiction here, you are fine 5-bet shoving AQ vs an UTG 4-bet but still folding KQ vs a BTN 4-bet? I think I would much much rather ship KQ vs the 1st BTN 4-bet than AQ vs the 1st UTG 4-bet.
I agree shipping KQ here is profitable vs quite a bit of players with the right dynamics (but still pretty bad vs some others).
Posted over 2 years ago
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Syous
248 posts
Joined 01/2008
you make a good point
Unfortunately it's territory that I'm not quite comfortable yet. Really there were 2 things that led me to shove AQ there (in actuality I would have folded)
1) DC Vid - Making a mistake on camera to talk about it later benefits us all
2) I assume btn vs utg 3betting is something that's kind of known among 6m'ers so when someone w/my stats 3bets the utg'er, and I had been doing so through out the session, I leveled myself into thinking he'd adjust right away and 4b bluff a decent amount. I could be right but that 1 hand says I'm wrong.
Posted over 2 years ago
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blehhhh
2 posts
Joined 06/2010
runners23
129 posts
Joined 01/2011
Time Link to 00:31:48
So why Do we check the flop here? We 3B pre and now when we check, we have to go into chk guess mode. I know hes a fish but even fish stab when checked too. Dont you think its alot easier to play to just CB and shut down when called ? Or is that to weak of a line, cause thats usally my standard cause when I take this line and I almost always make some very bad calls later on.
Posted almost 2 years ago
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