Mid Stakes Shorthanded NL Poker Forums

At 1/2 and 2/4 is it advisable to shove with QQ, JJ, TT or AK offsuit pre-flop? I remember being in a live game where initial raiser $150 PF, the other guy shoved for $400 and the initial raiser folded showing QQ....the other guy showed AA.

Obviously AA, KK and AKs are all insta-shoves.

So should I automatically stack off preflop with TT-QQ and AK offsuit in 1/2 or 2/4 cash games?

The question you asked here isnt answerable as posted; there are just too many factors left unclear; what are the table dynamics? what is your image, what is villains image? what are his stats? Is there recent history? Is it live or online?

Online 1/2 and 2/4.

My image is of a modestly tight multi-tabler, I mostly play the cards and don't bluff too often, but I raise PF more than I call.

1st scenario villain has no stats - what do I do when he re-raises my PF raise and I have JJ, QQ or AK offsuit?

2nd scenario villain is looseish stats, VP 28% - I would tend to push here with QQ and AK offsuit upwards....is that correct?

3rd scenario villain is tight...I raise PF, he re-raises...I am now thinking about throwing away my JJ, QQ, AK offsuit. My range to push is only AA, KK, AKs.

Ok, thats at least something to work with.

#1 Against an unknown at NL200+ i stack off with QQ+ AK+ preflop. I need good reads to not do so. JJ is kinda meh. OOP id rather 4-bet/call, IP i dont mind a call and playing some poker after the flop. You could do this with TT, QQ or some SCs occasionally as well, to not make your hand transparent. Still, 4-bet/calling IP isnt such a big blunder imo.

#2 This is pretty worthless without his PFR. Against a 28/2 player all of these hands are turbomucks vs. a 3-bet. If he plays 28/25, then yes, i get it in with all those hands.

#3 Well, stacking off with AKs here but not QQ makes no sense to me. You fold QQ because you feel that he mostly has higher pairs, and then you stack off with AKs thinking he has what? (also describing him as tight, that might range from 8/5 to 18/15, so you should give us better descriptions)

Also keep in mind that there is no general formula for winning in poker. Every situation is a bit different and needs to be treated that way. All of the above "rules" are only approximations and might change due to tabledynamics, special reads or whatever.

OK, thanks very much for the reply.

I agree we need to know the PFR % of the opponent prior to shoving. Someone who doesn't do much PFR definitely has a tight range I guess and wouldn't shove anything less than KK or AA

My thinking of AKs is that it's ranked by Sklansky at the higher end of the hands. Am I not right in thinking that the cards are suited, it gives 1 more way to win?

I do like to call sometimes with T/T thru to QQ just to see if I make a set, or how the flop/action goes and slow it down. I typically like to smooth call the PFR in position.

OK, thanks very much for the reply.

I agree we need to know the PFR % of the opponent prior to shoving. Someone who doesn't do much PFR definitely has a tight range I guess and wouldn't shove anything less than KK or AA

My thinking of AKs is that it's ranked by Sklansky at the higher end of the hands. Am I not right in thinking that the cards are suited, it gives 1 more way to win?

I do like to call sometimes with T/T thru to QQ just to see if I make a set, or how the flop/action goes and slow it down. I typically like to smooth call the PFR in position.

Ok, so basically you fold QQ since you feel that he almost always has only AA,KK.

Equity Win Tie Lose Hand
Spieler 1: 18.259 % 18.034 % 0.450 % 81.516 % QQ
Spieler 2: 81.741 % 81.516 % 0.450 % 18.034 % AA,KK


If you think AKs and AKo are in his range as well, you should go allin:

Equity Win% Tie% Lose% Hand
Spieler 1: 40.207 % 38.348 % 3.719 % 57.933 % QQ
Spieler 2: 59.793 % 57.933 % 3.719 % 38.348 % AA,KK,AKs,AKo,QQ

Given that there is already lots of money in the pot after you or he 3-bets, you have to go with this (just concerning Odds&Outs). So if you feel that hes not capable of going broke with AKs,AKo,QQ preflop, why would you want to go allin with AKs instead of QQ? Yes, indeed, having AKs means that there are fewer combinations of AA and KK due to card removal (8 instead of 12) but still; If you dont think hes putting it in with JJ+,AK+ this is a -EV call.

Equity Win Tie Lose Hand
Spieler 1: 34.586 % 34.218 % 0.737 % 65.046 % AKs
Spieler 2: 65.414 % 65.046 % 0.737 % 34.218 % AA,KK,QQ

This becomes even worse if you take QQ out of his range, which is possible.

Equity Win Tie Lose Hand
Spieler 1: 42.806 % 27.760 % 30.090 % 42.149 % AKs
Spieler 2: 57.194 % 42.149 % 30.090 % 27.760 % JJ+,AKo,AKs

QQ actually does even better against this range!

Equity Win Tie Lose Hand
Spieler 1: 47.366 % 45.788 % 3.157 % 51.056 % QQ
Spieler 2: 52.634 % 51.056 % 3.157 % 45.788 % JJ+,AKo,AKs



Well, indeed, with the cards being suited, your equity improves. But this improvement is not as big as you might consider; The difference between AKs and AKo isnt that big.

So, to sum it up: your folding QQ preflop against those guys, because you feel that the almost always have a pair bigger than yours. If you do so, you should fold AKo and AKs as well, since they look just as bad against this range.

coldi, you the man.

coldi, you the man.

me 4 mod imo

basically i agree however there are so many spots against nits or otherwise extremely tight 3 bettors that shoving QQ and AK fall short that i hesitate so give such a broad "ok shove here as default" answer.

I know several 20-15 regulars at 2/4 that are aggro openers but if they 3 bet from blinds, you are always flipping or crushed with QQ. This is more exception than rule, but since it exists enough, thats why i hesitate to give default shoves. (Against these types, i call the 3 bet and get it in on non-ace/king flops)

I've been experimenting lately with rarely (if ever) shoving preflop and instead making the smallish, non-committing 4bets and calling shoves with my bigger hands and folding the 4bet bluffs. Similar to what either Krantz or Whitelime was discussing in their vid last week - can't remember which it was, Krantz I think.

This doesn't answer your question directly, because my range for calling the shove will vary greatly depending on the villain, but I think it is a great strategy to work into your game because it allows you to 4bet bluff cheaply, and get shoved on by worse hands than would call if you had 4bet shoved.

Thanks guys for the replies.....

I often just call the 3-bet with QQ and indeed get my money in if the flop does not contain an Ace or King.

I'm showing big profit on my pokertracker stats for KK and OK profit for AA with QQ still in profit but not by much (profit is profit though eh?). The read on the villain is important I guess to determine the shove with QQ. I can remember at least one time I outdrew trip 10s for a full stack to make trip Queens so it's not always -EV.

If there is a raise PF, then a re-raise I am always inclined to fold AK off suit...you think this is a bad play?

I've been experimenting lately with rarely (if ever) shoving preflop and instead making the smallish, non-committing 4bets and calling shoves with my bigger hands and folding the 4bet bluffs. Similar to what either Krantz or Whitelime was discussing in their vid last week - can't remember which it was, Krantz I think.

This doesn't answer your question directly, because my range for calling the shove will vary greatly depending on the villain, but I think it is a great strategy to work into your game because it allows you to 4bet bluff cheaply, and get shoved on by worse hands than would call if you had 4bet shoved.

yeah I think if you aren't employing this strategy you are just making life tough on yourself. For now most players haven't adjusted, and you actually make it easier to stack them when you have AKs and QQ+, while avoiding tough spots when you 4-bet bluff or play other hands this way.