Mid Stakes Shorthanded NL Poker Forums

Boss $400.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players

BB: $620.53
UTG: $863.02
Hero (CO): $980.99
BTN: $866.76
SB: $978.62

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is CO with A A
1 fold, Hero raises to $14, BTN calls $14, 1 fold, BB calls $10

Flop: ($44.00) Q 7 3 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $32.00, BTN raises to $76, BB calls $76, Hero calls $44

Turn: ($272.00) 4 (3 players)
BB checks, [color=red] Hero bets 153$


BTN is a 23/18, 3bet 6% , raise cbet 13% reg

BB is a bad stationy reg playing 26/19, 3bet 8%, WTS 31, x/r 11%
// NOTE: fast playing strong hands on draws boards almost always

my image: been splashing around a bit prolly playing like 29/25

im not too worried of getting raised by BTN on the flop there since his value range beating me shud be 777 and 333 only and i expected him to play back a lill since i was playing kinda aggro.

BB is overcalling - this is where it gets intresting ... i expect his range to be

mostly flush draws, kombo draws, some AQ/KQ, and sets (but notice my note - shudnt be sets too often)
if a good reg overcalls there i think there shud be sets in his range much more often

so i call - what`s ur line on the turn?

i would reraise flop being oop almost always here. think on turn they would probably fold anyway if they won't improve and you will win the same amount right there or get it in as a flip or fav. so i prefer to take the chance of getting it in against draws, combo draws, Qx.. on the flop. as played i am not sure, straight (56) just got there, but i think if the bt is able to stack of w/ Qx here we have to b/call here.

if i reraise flop here after alls this action i expect to ONLY get it in vs sets and kombodraws here with that stack depth.

so i think it´s not ideal to stackoff vs that range right?

lol, sry for beeing blind "AA deep..." didn't recognize stacksizes, i am not sure if i like leading or c/c and reevaluate on the river more to keep the pot smaller that deep. hate to b/f there AA .

my image: been splashing around a bit prolly playing like 29/25

is this the view they should have on you after playing for 2-3k hands, or is this just for the actual table?

it`s the actual table dynamic

if both players really care about the actual table dynamic I am pretty sure you should 3b the flop, because BB is never folding Qx and BTN might bluff with a higher frequency then normal. but, I think I wouldn't care that much in this spot about table dynamics (thats why I asked for their general view on you, because this is more important iMo). I think the correct play should be to call the flop raise, fold to a BTN bet on the turn (after the read you have on BB, BTN shouldn't bluff the turn vs 2 player in this spot, so I think his range is to strong at this point if he bets), and if checked through on the turn I would call a bet from BB or vbet if he checks.

I don't think it makes sense to play a hand on the flop as a bluff catcher and then trying to go for some value on the turn.

i think if im checking turn it either gets bet by BTN who crushes me then, or it gets checked around givin 2 players a freecard on a pretty wet board.

i lead out turn cause im pretty sure they both will tell me what they have on the turn
- i think i can cleary bet/fold there + get value from BB`s Qx or draws.

by 3betting the flop im creating a get it in range by my opponents which crushes me...

nobody is getting it in with Qx in that spot for 200bb`s 3ways.

i lead out turn cause im pretty sure they both will tell me what they have on the turn
- i think i can cleary bet/fold there + get value from BB`s Qx or draws.

so you think if you 3b the flop that BB will fold a Qx? I don't think so if your read is accurate.

and "raising/betting" for info/value works for the flop, too.

if you 3b the flop BTN won't go crazy with a hand like AJdd, 87dd or 65dd, because he can't expect you to fold and even more important he can't expect BB to fold, because your 3betting range has to beat at least Qx; => he's going to call with his draws.

think a little bit about your range. if you b/c flop and lead turn, you never have a bluff (you are not playing Ajdd or A5dd this way). but if you b/3b the flop, you might have a hand like AQ+ and some strong draws (strong draws because like you already wrote: BB isn't shipping Qx if you play ur hand this way) if your read on BB is correct and BTN knows that.

I haven't played midstakes since Black Friday, but: is folding the flop terribly nitty?

Think about it: there cannot be much air in BTN's flop raising range because:

1. you have two of the aces which removes some of the a-high bluffs he could have.

2. there is a "stationy reg" in the BB who BTN is unlikely to try to bluff.

3. BTN is more likely to flat with draws, to invite the BB to overcall.

4. It is not likely that you are cbetting light in a 3-way pot (meaning BTN should believe he does not have much fold equity, meaning his raise is probably for value, which means he probably beats AQ, which means he probably has a set or possibly Q7s).

5. The fact that BB overcalls means there are more flush draws in BB's range which means there are less flush draws in BTN's range.

Obviously we're getting a really good price, but still it's going to be tough to play OOP when deep vs. BTN on later streets anyway.

Fold flop?

1. you have two of the aces which removes some of the a-high bluffs he could have.
2. there is a "stationy reg" in the BB who BTN is unlikely to try to bluff.

obv I don't know his range completly, but I think it is more important that we don't have the Ad, because now he is able to have Ax-fds which he is raising the flop with. I don't think he's going to have to many complete airballs in his range, because of point 2

3. BTN is more likely to flat with draws, to invite the BB to overcall.

if BB wouldn't be that cally, it would make sense for him to just call. however, BB is a station, so BTN is able to raise and he can keep BB in.

4. It is not likely that you are cbetting light in a 3-way pot (meaning BTN should believe he does not have much fold equity, meaning his raise is probably for value, which means he probably beats AQ, which means he probably has a set or possibly Q7s).

I think hero should cbet this board with a high frequency, because both players will fold very often.

5. The fact that BB overcalls means there are more flush draws in BB's range which means there are less flush draws in BTN's range.

That's not completly true. BB will call with his Qx hands, too. So if he has a Qx hand, BTN is more likely to have a draw, but if BB has a draw then BTN obv is more likely to have a real hand. In general I think BB will show up with AQ/KQ here more often then with a draw (I think even he will fold JTdd on the flop)

Fold flop?

I think the correct play should be to call the flop raise, fold to a BTN bet on the turn (after the read you have on BB, BTN shouldn't bluff the turn vs 2 player in this spot, so I think his range is to strong at this point if he bets), and if checked through on the turn I would call a bet from BB or vbet if he checks.

I quoted myself here, because I think overall that's the best way to play your hand. If both(!) players really care about image then the b/3b flop line might become interesting, but tbh, I don't think that this is true. Most of the players just play their game, might sound shocking, but so far I believe it is true, because most players just want to grind their 4k hands per day and try to avoid tough decissions, even at nl400. Of course there are a lot of players who adjust pretty well, but I think those aren't the norm

I'm probably folding the flop here without a pretty sick read. BTN's raise doesn't have to be strong for that small price etc. but it doesn't have to be weak either. The cold flat by the BB is worrisome in a sense that if he doesn't have you beat now, you have to worry about flush draws in addition to being beat later. So the AOD may be a curse and not a blessing. If someone starts firing big bets on later streets you're likely folding. I'd rather fold AA on the flop here than try to get to showdown in this spot. You may be folding the best hand sometimes but I'd rather make that mistake than put in a large portion of 2 stacks vs. 2 dudes on the assumption that "hey our dynamic is a party!". When stacks get deep, shit gets real and it's unlikely to check down after this flop action.

I'm probably folding the flop here without a pretty sick read. BTN's raise doesn't have to be strong for that small price etc. but it doesn't have to be weak either.

well, we know that BTN has to be strong on the turn if he bets, because of the coldcall of BB. so he won't bluff the turn and we can get that information for $44 while the pot is already at $228. if BTN is strong he will bet the turn for value vs BB, but if he can't beat BBs range, he is just checking.

if the turn brings in the flush we have a easy c/f because of the range we gave both players. same obv counts for the river

When stacks get deep, shit gets real and it's unlikely to check down after this flop action.

Like I said, I don't think that his is true. If BB/BTN wants to play for stacks they have to go for it on the turn. So we get the information on the turn, if we are beat or not. And don't forget that BB is a station, and I see a lot of stationy players call there with a hand like AQ. I think BTN is more likely to cb with a draw/KQ type hand then he is to bet it on the turn, because he has to be afraid of BB

I'd rather fold AA on the flop here than try to get to showdown in this spot. You may be folding the best hand sometimes but I'd rather make that mistake than put in a large portion of 2 stacks vs. 2 dudes on the assumption that "hey our dynamic is a party!".

This is obv true, and like you wrote there has to be a dynamic and a specific read so that b/3b can become the best play (and like I wrote, too, I don't think that this is the case here).

Overall I really believe that call>fold>3b with the given line:

"call the flop raise, fold to a BTN bet on the turn (after the read you have on BB, BTN shouldn't bluff the turn vs 2 player in this spot, so I think his range is to strong at this point if he bets), and if checked through on the turn I would call a bet from BB or vbet if he checks"

I think you're connecting the turn and river as one street here and though it's important to think ahead and have a plan I don't think you can have the "def checking to river and showdown after I call here" mentality along with the "if there's a bet on the turn I can easily fold" mentality. While it's true that someone who wants to get stacks in/the most money has incentive to bomb the turn and keep going, there's more than that to think about. If the turn DOES check through and you face a bet on the river what are you going to do? From which person and on what cards? There may be similar spots in which I would perhaps continue here, this most likely isn't one of them. If you're folding to every turn and river bet and only calling to show down your hand, bleh.

No real way to improve (and if you do you could lose a fair amount because lets face it, you aren't folding a set on the turn (flush completing obv) and if the turn checks and you hit it on the river you probably aren't folding to a big bet either! (same, I mean the Ad), no great way to get to showdown freely (no guarantee and no strong assumption), no desire to call further bets on later streets, 2 opponents, this spot blows.

Also, if you expect BTN to know BB is a station and that's going to stop him from betting the turn, he probably isn't raising the flop very lightly, even if his bet size is small, because that should look like a bet a station would call often. If BTN decided to raise a draw on the flop, there's a good chance he plans to barrel blank turns. I'm not saying this is 100% correct, but I am saying that you should double check your thought process to make sure you aren't splitting up what BTN is thinking to let you make plays that aren't very good. Make sure if you think he thinks BB is a station that your general view of how he's thinking (with the reads you have) makes sense from street to street. Kinda rambling here but you get the point.

I think you're connecting the turn and river as one street here and though it's important to think ahead and have a plan I don't think you can have the "def checking to river and showdown after I call here" mentality along with the "if there's a bet on the turn I can easily fold" mentality. While it's true that someone who wants to get stacks in/the most money has incentive to bomb the turn and keep going, there's more than that to think about. If the turn DOES check through and you face a bet on the river what are you going to do? From which person and on what cards? There may be similar spots in which I would perhaps continue here, this most likely isn't one of them. If you're folding to every turn and river bet and only calling to show down your hand, bleh.

No real way to improve (and if you do you could lose a fair amount because lets face it, you aren't folding a set on the turn (flush completing obv) and if the turn checks and you hit it on the river you probably aren't folding to a big bet either! (same, I mean the Ad), no great way to get to showdown freely (no guarantee and no strong assumption), no desire to call further bets on later streets, 2 opponents, this spot blows.

in no offense way, but have you read what I wrote?

"call the flop raise, fold to a BTN bet on the turn (after the read you have on BB, BTN shouldn't bluff the turn vs 2 player in this spot, so I think his range is to strong at this point if he bets), and if checked through on the turn I would call a bet from BB or vbet if he checks"

if BB bets the river after the turn got checked through I am calling his bet. if he checks I am vbetting. if the turn/river is a diamond I am c/f (yes, even on the Ad [only calling turn if I get a good price for hitting my FH/Quads]), because of the range I gave them.

Also, if you expect BTN to know BB is a station and that's going to stop him from betting the turn, he probably isn't raising the flop very lightly, even if his bet size is small, because that should look like a bet a station would call often. If BTN decided to raise a draw on the flop, there's a good chance he plans to barrel blank turns. I'm not saying this is 100% correct, but I am saying that you should double check your thought process to make sure you aren't splitting up what BTN is thinking to let you make plays that aren't very good. Make sure if you think he thinks BB is a station that your general view of how he's thinking (with the reads you have) makes sense from street to street. Kinda rambling here but you get the point.

It doesn't really matter if he knows that BB is a station or not, and we don't know if he knows that he is a station, so I wouldn't take that fact to much into consideration.

The real important thing here is the following:
If BB coldcalls BTNs raise and we call BTNs raise after someone coldcalled, I think it is really optimistic to think that BTN goes for a bet with a weak Qx or a fd on a blank turn! I am a 100% sure that most players won't bet the turn and take the freecard.

And the argument "you don't know what he is up to" doesn't count in this spot, because we should assume what most players would do in this spot. If he really semibluffs in this spot, great play against us, horrible play against BB!