High Stakes Strategy Poker Forums

I know xorbie has a reputation for doing nonstandard things and getting out of line. Here are two hands I played against him to give you some context of our relationship:

Full Tilt Poker $10/$20 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

SB: $3590.00
Hero (BB): $11836.00
CO: $4505.00
BTN: $9280.00

Pre Flop: ($30.00) Hero is BB with 3 2
1 fold, BTN raises to $60, 1 fold, Hero calls $40

Flop: ($130.00) 8 5 J (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($130.00) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $320, BTN raises to $800, Hero calls $480

River: ($1730.00) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $600, BTN calls $600

Final Pot: $2930.00
Hero shows 3 2 (a flush, Nine high)
BTN mucks A T
Hero wins $2928.00
(Rake: $2.00)



Full Tilt Poker $10/$20 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

CO: $3137.00
Hero (BTN): $7421.00
SB: $4131.00
BB: $14498.00

Pre Flop: ($30.00) Hero is BTN with 9 K
1 fold, Hero raises to $70, 1 fold, BB calls $50

Flop: ($150.00) 7 3 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $120, BB calls $120

Turn: ($390.00) 5 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $320, BB raises to $1000, Hero calls $680

River: ($2390.00) 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1600, BB calls $1600

Final Pot: $5590.00
Hero shows 9 K (three of a kind, Nines)
BB mucks 6 6
Hero wins $5588.00
(Rake: $2.00)

So here is the hand in question, feel free to critique all streets:


Full Tilt Poker $10/$20 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BTN: $3137.00
Hero (SB): $14661.00
BB: $4151.00
CO: $7240.00

Pre Flop: ($30.00) Hero is SB with K Q
CO raises to $70, 1 fold, Hero calls $60, 1 fold

Flop: ($160.00) A 4 K (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $140, Hero raises to $460, CO raises to $1300, Hero calls $840

Turn: ($2760.00) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($2760.00) 5 (2 players)
Hero requests TIME, Hero bets $1300, CO raises to $5870 all in, Hero requests TIME

Final Pot: $5360.00

fold to the flop 3-bet. there's just too much potential craziness looming ahead on future streets to make me want to play a big pot oop w/ a marginal hand/no draw. without knowing anything about your ranges/tendencies/etc. i think i'd like a turn donk/fold better than a river donk/fold.

fold to the flop 3-bet. there's just too much potential craziness looming ahead on future streets to make me want to play a big pot oop w/ a marginal hand/no draw. without knowing anything about your ranges/tendencies/etc. i think i'd like a turn donk/fold better than a river donk/fold.

well, the whole point of the flop c/r is to induce action, so if we're going to fold to a flop 3-bet, we should just call the flop, right?

Wehn i first looked at the hand i thought you prob lost your mind .

Flop: Obv when the intention of your c/r is to induce action you cannot fold. But i do not like the "induce action plan " here since you are 360bb deep against a competent player with a mediocre holding which is very hard to play and especially oop.

Turn: As i understand your game plan in the hand , you do not play your hand as a bluff representing a monster but to get value from missed draws and other worse hands, so the check turn is prob inevitable since when raised you have to fold here what could be very well be still the best hand.


River: I guess you go for value from weak made hands and hands like missed draw and pair, representing a draw yourself. His turn check behind that deep with that many draws lead me to believe we can discount some monsters here like A4, A8, 44. He could very well try to move you off a weak hand yourself figuring with a monster you do not just call the flop that deep oop. I think i call since i cannot figure out a reasonable range of hands he checks behind the turn and then shoving the river for value.


Ofc if you lose you look like a spewing idiot ALso noted on the upside of call ^^

In the end I guess the correct play depends on what level Xorbie is. What do you think that he thinks of your handstrength, and do you think that he expects you to fold or call with those hands? Another question: what hands do you think he can shove for value here? Can he shove ATo for value here for example?

well, the whole point of the flop c/r is to induce action, so if we're going to fold to a flop 3-bet, we should just call the flop, right?

This is definitely not true. I don't know whether I'm advocating folding or calling (and obv the c/r on the flop is not at all standard to begin with), but when you c/r the flop, you get 3-bet so rarely in position, that c/r to induce action (calling very light) but folding to a 3bet would not be a terrible play at all.

As far as the hand goes, I'd just fold since the flush draw missed, you've made an obvious blocking bet, and he knows you're a calling station. All of those would lean toward you making a big call, which is what he probably wants you to do. If he's capable of doing this at all thin (I think he is), it's even clearer of a fold.

such a sick hand

This is definitely not true. I don't know whether I'm advocating folding or calling (and obv the c/r on the flop is not at all standard to begin with), but when you c/r the flop, you get 3-bet so rarely in position, that c/r to induce action (calling very light) but folding to a 3bet would not be a terrible play at all.

As far as the hand goes, I'd just fold since the flush draw missed, you've made an obvious blocking bet, and he knows you're a calling station. All of those would lean toward you making a big call, which is what he probably wants you to do. If he's capable of doing this at all thin (I think he is), it's even clearer of a fold.

Disagree with the first statement. If I'm c/ring this hand on this flop, it means that my opponent is creative/splashy enough to recognize stack depth and fight back one way or another when I do so. I don't necessarily think we can really intuit whether or not he'll choose to call or 3-bet when he thinks I'm bluffing, so I think it's a mandatory call.

As far as the hand played out... my hand should either be Ax or a flush draw. His hand should be Ax or a flush draw (given the turn check), or maybe rivered two pair (or a rivered straight with a flush draw). He should call with all his Ax (no way he jams that for value, that would be insane IMO, especially considering I am a station and can def outkick him when I play the flop that way) and shove his two pairs and straights... does he think I would even bet Ax? Would he try to move me off a draw with another draw?

well, the whole point of the flop c/r is to induce action, so if we're going to fold to a flop 3-bet, we should just call the flop, right?

okay, never in my life have i played a hand w/ mid pair on a board like this, but i want to learn, jedi master!

let's start at the beginning...u say flop c'r is to induce action? okay, what are we trying to induce action from on this board, and why is this our plan in this particular spot?

obviously, u would love to get money in against flush draws. but against a range of flush draws and strong hands, u are crushed. so that leaves air. for your plan of inducing action to be correct, u need him to play back at u w/ a ton of air (or worse kings i guess). Do u really expect him to play back at u enough w/ air to make it correct to put in several hundred big blinds w/ mid pair here?


**would u recommend that a mid stakes player mix in flop raises w/ hands like this? If so, why and how often?

i think i almost never check/raise this flop and only bet this river to induce a jam (and against xorbie, the way he was playing, doesn't seem too bad). but i think a check/call is going to be more profitable because he might fire all his weak missed draws putting you on higher draws (which is easier to do and a line more often taken than a bluffraise of a weak river lead) and you obv lose less the times you're behind (including times where he has a marginal ace which i could see him playing this way but which might not bet the river).

i think i almost never check/raise this flop and only bet this river to induce a jam (and against xorbie, the way he was playing, doesn't seem too bad). but i think a check/call is going to be more profitable because he might fire all his weak missed draws putting you on higher draws (which is easier to do and a line more often taken than a bluffraise of a weak river lead) and you obv lose less the times you're behind (including times where he has a marginal ace which i could see him playing this way but which might not bet the river).

why would he jam riv w/ a marginal ace?

why would he jam riv w/ a marginal ace?

yeah. i cant see wtf he has after it goes c/c on turn though. poss like 67dd/23dd. Dont think he's value shipping light given action (think 45dd flats river). shit i like call but thats ridic spew 350bb deep right? right?

Forgive my ignorance at these stakes, what's wrong with check/call river here? All draws missed, he checks the turn....give him a chance to bluff. Otherwise you have some showdown value.

The opponent knows you've called him down recently, so this time maybe he's actually jamming with a real hand here.

I like the flop c/r and call the 3bet, because I agree that c/r only makes sense if it is designed to induce a 3bet bluff; c/r only to induce a call from worse made hands is pure spew, c/c is the standard alternative but it would allow him to take full advantage of position in future streets.

The turn play is interesting because he stops the aggression, usually that means a bluff that gave up or a draw taking the free card. He could be tricky and check back a set or AK since your call is more a made hand which might be drawing dead than a draw to see the turn without odds or position.

The thing I don't understand is the river bet. It makes no sense unless the match if going so aggro that you induce and snap call the shove.
Anyway I would check/fold the river if I had the calling station image that you claim. He's not bluffing a calling station specially after showing weakness on the turn and knowing that you probably have a good hand.

On the river, on his side your hand looks like AJ,AQ... or even A4,44 that also make sense because you'd rather call the 3 bet and let him keep the initiative than 4bet and have value only from AK w/ 44 and probably from nothing with A4. You probably 3bet more than you call preflop with AQ and 44 but this deep I think that you balance both.
The point to this is that he sees you with a stronger made hand than you have so he's not going to bluff you when you check. But he might raise you when you bet and make you fold AJ,AQ, mabye even A4.
Does it make any sense if I suggest that the alternative to C/F (my first option) is bet/call ?

results please boss