Poker Video: Stud/Stud 8 by Joe Tall (Micro/Small Stakes)

great information in the video, although perhaps too few examples.

have some questions about stud: there are many fish in online stud? what is a good winrate for a good player in the medium-high limits? is there more variance in stud than holdem, or less? you can multitable while tracking dead cards?

Thanks!

Agreed! This was a great primer. I had never considered any other game than Hold'em before, but this is tempting me.

I'll add a few more questions: Is the bankroll requirements approximately the same as LHE? As LHE, are the games much softer live than online for the same level?

great information in the video, although perhaps too few examples.

have some questions about stud: there are many fish in online stud? what is a good winrate for a good player in the medium-high limits? is there more variance in stud than holdem, or less? you can multitable while tracking dead cards?

Thanks!

Raist0000,

Since Stud is so complicated, I had to limit it to few examples and decided on one each spot. It's a Pandora's box as once I start giving examples I have to give contrast examples and re-contrast, etc, etc. I could make an entire series on how to play 3rd street. 8-videos, and I still don't think I'd be done. The series is meant to give the Hold'em player a foothold in Stud, let them make their own decisions by using these basic guidelines.

Like I said in the video, Stud played at an expert level has less variance. I believe I say, "slippery slope" where bad players will have massive variance and good players can limit their variance by using the information. I cant' multi-table Stud. I find more than 2 impossible and a losing venture. Winrates can be higher, but dont forget the games are a hair slower and it going to take a lot of practice. Start at the lower limits with the pricipals you have learned here and read everything you can. Practice, Practice, Practice, like no other game, Stud take practice.

Hope you enjoy the series,
Joe Tall

Agreed! This was a great primer. I had never considered any other game than Hold'em before, but this is tempting me.

I'll add a few more questions: Is the bankroll requirements approximately the same as LHE? As LHE, are the games much softer live than online for the same level?

IMO, the game are great. Sooo many HE players drift into other games w/o a clue. For Stud Hi, expect the same bankroll requirements as LHE, larger for online.

Enjoy!
-Joe Tall

hey JT
is there some kind of pot odds sheet for stud? I assume it would be rather complicated when weighted for dead cards and for more betting rounds

thanks
Nick

hey JT
is there some kind of pot odds sheet for stud? I assume it would be rather complicated when weighted for dead cards and for more betting rounds

thanks
Nick

Nick,

You'll just have to discount your outs when you see your dead cards. If you have an open ender but two cards are dead, you have a 6-outer. Since you are on most of your continuation decision will occur on 4th street you'll have about ~12 known cards on avg so use a deck of 40 unknown. Therefore you would have a 6.67:1 (40/6) chance to make your hand on 5th. Be careful now that the bet size has doubled and try to keep you pair outs in consideration. On 4th I use a rough standard of 40-unknowns in a full game, regardless of my opponents as it makes the math a bit easier on the fly. However, as you get better you will be able to make clear calculations, add in your opponents range, your possible implied odds, etc and make the best decision possible.

A multi-way sheet could be constructed as you have more opponents and therefore, less unknowns, etc, etc but would take some time, yes.

Hope this helps,
Joe

Hi JT
just goofing around with Stud Hi .
Interesting, I am playing with a couple of bucks because I don't have a clue but I liked your video and
will watch all the future ones.

Keep these stud videos coming, they are a refreshing change from all that NL grinding.

At least in the lower limits, looks to me uber-tight is the way to make a buck or two...

Keep these stud videos coming, they are a refreshing change from all that NL grinding.

That's the point of the series for sure. To help a HE player "mix" it up and keep poker fun.

At least in the lower limits, looks to me uber-tight is the way to make a buck or two...

Well, it's going to take practice but you'll find you spots!

Hi Joe, I have a question about Stud that I've always wondered about...

I see a normal full table is 8 handed. If no one folds each player receives 7 cards.

8*7 = 56

Which is obviously more cards than are in a standard deck. I realize this situation may be rare, but what happens if it occurs? Don't say it could never happen or I will be forced to get 7 other DC members to a micro limit Stud table to try it out. Do you know how would that be handled in a casino and by an online poker room?

One question on the video: you mention that wired pairs are more powerful than split pairs because they are more hidden. This makes sense to me. As a HE player, is a good way for me to think about this to make it analogous to the difference between holding a set (a pair in my hand with one more of my rank on the board) and trips (two of the same rank on the board, matching one in my hand)?

Hi Joe, I have a question about Stud that I've always wondered about...

I see a normal full table is 8 handed. If no one folds each player receives 7 cards.

8*7 = 56

Which is obviously more cards than are in a standard deck. I realize this situation may be rare, but what happens if it occurs? Don't say it could never happen or I will be forced to get 7 other DC members to a micro limit Stud table to try it out. Do you know how would that be handled in a casino and by an online poker room?

One question on the video: you mention that wired pairs are more powerful than split pairs because they are more hidden. This makes sense to me. As a HE player, is a good way for me to think about this to make it analogous to the difference between holding a set (a pair in my hand with one more of my rank on the board) and trips (two of the same rank on the board, matching one in my hand)?

Hey Pygmy,

If there are too many players left in the hand for each player to receive their final down card, a community card is played. I'm pretty sure this has happened in the rare situations when we've played in 2p2 games at the Wynn, but I'm not 100% sure.

The Seven Card Stud Poker Rules allow a maximum of eight online poker players to play in a hand but given there are only 52 cards in the deck you will run out of cards if everyone sees it though to seventh street. Such being the case if you run out of cards you are allowed to use a community cards which is placed in the middle of the table.

Rob

Rob is right, it's called a "spit" card. (which also makes for great Stud-flipaments, btw)

As for your analogy, you are 100% correct.

Joe, I was thinking more about this split pair versus concealed pair thing today and I have another Stud question I'm hoping you can clear up.

Position in Stud is kind of confusing to me because, unlike LHE, it changes. I understand the rules of how position works in Stud, but I want to try to grasp the implications of the changing position a little better (like how it affects the actual play of hands).

I'm probably not explaining what I want to ask well enough, but I think an example will clear it up. Let's say on third street I have a pair of aces with an 8 kicker and end HU with an opponent who has a Q in the door.

If my aces are split I will likely act first on 4th street. But if my aces are concealed I will likely act last on 4th.

Now, I know enough about position from HE to know which situation is better for me, but I guess what I want to know is how much better is it for me to be IP? Is acting last in Stud about as valuable as having the BTN in HE? More? Less?

Should my likelihood of acting last on later streets affect my starting hand selection (e.g. can I loosen up if I am likely to be last on later streets)? If so how should I loosen up? How should I estimate how likely I am to act last on later streets?

My example may be extreme and/or obvious, so more generally, what kind of positional considerations come up often in Stud? Examples would be very helpful.

I know that's a lot of questions and I don't expect you to answer them all. It's more I'm just trying to give you an idea of what I don't understand and would like to learn more about.

Also, I've only watched the first 3 episodes so far, so if you cover some or all of this later on I'm fine with you saying, 'watch episode 6 and then ask me if you still have questions.'

Now, I know enough about position from HE to know which situation is better for me, but I guess what I want to know is how much better is it for me to be IP? Is acting last in Stud about as valuable as having the BTN in HE? More? Less?

Stud is massively complicated but position has utmost importance in all forms of poker. It is going to be a tough dynamic to learn how to use stud-position well but it's right up there in importance.

Should my likelihood of acting last on later streets affect my starting hand selection (e.g. can I loosen up if I am likely to be last on later streets)? If so how should I loosen up? How should I estimate how likely I am to act last on later streets?

Just think to your left is the 2c, a As raises next a, T calls, a J calls, a Q calls and you have (8h5h)6s before the bring. Ok now the Ace is on your right, how do you feel about the hand? In the first example you likely can peel 4th if you pick up a bricky card, like 2h say, but if you are trapped in the second example between the Ace and scary boards, well that changes things.

My example may be extreme and/or obvious, so more generally, what kind of positional considerations come up often in Stud? Examples would be very helpful.

Off the top of my head, I can give one, straight from 7CSFAP which you must read and will answer many of your questions.

Say you have (AhT)Th8h and are up against a probable pair of Queens, XXQs3, you should raise to get HU as you aren't in that bad of shape, any card improves you hand will give you the positional lead (AT8 as long as your opponent does hit a Q or you both catch Aces) and if you make your 4-flush on 5th, you will be likely checked to, where, depending on what your opponent catches/read on him you can take a free card or bet.

-Joe Tall

Wow! Thanks a lot Joe.

That's exactly what I was looking for. Your post clears up a ton of stuff, probably more than I realize right now.

And thanks again for tolerating me bumping all of your old threads.