Off Topic Poker Forums

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/

Pretty good article

Sometimes you get bored and want something new?

Yeah true I guess.

#beendoingitwrong

This actually sounds very Buddhist/Eastern philosophical to me.

since i haven't read any actual Buddhist writings, there must be cross-pollination between stoicism and Buddhism. but i consider my personal philosophy of life very informal stoicism without any consideration of the metaphysics. i'm purely interested in efficacy. i find it suits my temperament really well.

"take what you find useful and discard what you don't," right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M

Like AG said, what you are saying is the same as hindu/buddhist philosophy. Both the neither good nor bad, and the take what you find useful and discard what you don't.

if the pain of losing someone we know means we loved them, then similarly, i think the pain of not being able to achieve what we want shows us what we think are important to us. pain tells how to value or act towards all manner of things and situations; it's just information and neither good nor bad.

I think the pain of not achieving something we want is one that can and should be eliminated by not wanting it. Take poker for instance. If you spend all the time and energy to become masterful at it, do so because you enjoy the full experience of it. Don't do it simply because you want to be good. You should approach all things in the same manner. Put forth effort for complete understanding, not for some goal. Not achieving mastery of poker causes dissatisfaction in life if your pursuit of it was not to enjoy and explore it fully.

i agree with you generally in wanting to be healthy, but you're glossing over some details. we know enough about nutrition now to adjust our behavior on a conscious level and not endlessly eat everything that tastes good. but even if we know now that too much sugar wrecks the metabolic system, that doesn't change the fact that it's still a signal for an energy-dense food. the taste mechanism evolved in an environment where sweetness was rare. and people who still live in primitive environments will go to great lengths and physical danger to get some honey since it's such a rare and valued find.

Does it seem better to go to great lengths and physical danger than to not desire the sweetness? It would seem to me one would be happier and find other things to focus on if they simply gave up honey.

so, basically, the best thought process in life is "can't get honey, eh... i didn't want honey anyway?"

Buddhism may label this enlightenment, but in modern psychology, this is called reducing cognitive dissonance and people automatically do it all the time even without being Buddhists.

still, i agree that winning is not needed to have a good life. you only need the desire and the ability and willingness to pursue it. but this desirelessness business is just not all that profound or even desirable from a practical standpoint imo. not setting good goals usually results in people aimlessly hacking away at one pursuit after another their whole lives. i've been really good at having no goals most of my life, so i can attest to how great this approach works btw.

"A Quest?" - Man of La Mancha (Youtube)

so, basically, the best thought process in life is "can't get honey, eh... i didn't want honey anyway?"

no, the thought process is, 'Does the desire for honey and the energy and danger expended to get it create peace and happiness? Honey or no honey (because we sometimes fail to achieve our desires).' Lacking honey doesn't kill you, so you don't need it.

still i agree that winning is not needed to have a good life. you only need the desire and the ability and willingness to pursue it. but this desirelessness and goallessness business is just not all that profound or even desirable from a practical standpoint imo. i mean, if one desires progress that is and not just aimlessly hacking away at one pursuit after another.

I disagree. Chasing something often leads to a lot of fruitless pain. I'll give you an example. I used to ~race my car. Which leads to the desire to be faster. I spent money on driver training. Looked into different types of racing. Looked into parts for my car. Ultimately, the joy of driving quickly was subsumed by the energy lost thinking about this part or that part, maybe I should do hill climbs or track days, or building my own car (which I still plan to do someday), I wish I could afford this or that, maybe I've got the wrong car (it's FWD, so I do), which car should I get, I can't afford to get a different car... what did that bring me? What did that desire cause for me? Not happiness. A bit of fun when I was actually at the wheel, but even than I'm thinking about how to get faster. Or messing up a corner made me swear and be pissed(even if only a little).
So many people get into poker because it's fun and then proceed to grind all the joy out of it with the desire to be good. I play(ed) poker to be good at it, but I should've been playing poker to fully enjoy and appreciate the poker-ness of poker. Most people end up quitting because they can't be Phil Ivey, or frustrated with their lack of understanding (because they desire to understand it). That's one thing I may be a bit different in - I knew I wouldn't understand all of it. I like playing. I like knowing how to play. I enjoy the intellectual side, and the gamesmanship.

And it's not goallessness. Just your goal should be the full experience and enjoyment of something.


I can see how it is seen as a bit fatalist, but there are things in this world you can't change. You can't not die, so why rage, rage against the dying of the light? What does it get you?

I can see how it is seen as a bit fatalist, but there are things in this world you can't change. You can't not die, so why rage, rage against the dying of the light? What does it get you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsx2vdn7gpY

I'm not at all against having goals - they are 100% necessary. Man certainly needs something that gives him meaning - without meaning, he quickly dies, either literally or emotionally/spiritually.

I guess what I'm saying, though, is that you should be the master of your goals, instead of letting your goals be the master of you, and most people should spend more time observing, being mindful of, and enjoying the present moment and the joy of feeling good for it's own sake. And you should want to achieve your goals mostly because of the A) the enjoyment of the process/journey and B) the person you become by overcoming the necessary challenges (self-transcendence), as opposed to wanting to achieve your goals for more external reasons.

Finding the balance between striving for something in the future, and enjoying the present is probably the hardest balance to strike. And most people fail at it.

Good thread. Replying to remind me to respond at a time when I am not nearly asleep.

I'm not at all against having goals - they are 100% necessary. Man certainly needs something that gives him meaning - without meaning, he quickly dies, either literally or emotionally/spiritually.

I guess what I'm saying, though, is that you should be the master of your goals, instead of letting your goals be the master of you, and most people should spend more time observing, being mindful of, and enjoying the present moment and the joy of feeling good for it's own sake. And you should want to achieve your goals mostly because of the A) the enjoyment of the process/journey and B) the person you become by overcoming the necessary challenges (self-transcendence), as opposed to wanting to achieve your goals for more external reasons.

i agree with this part entirely. Steppin alluded to this, and i've also alluded to this in previous posts. i just find the whole wanting desirelessness but not actively wanting such a thing too pseudo-intellectual for serious consideration. and i agree, if one were to live her life according to goals and deadlines for their own sake, life would be pretty miserable. goals are just a tool, however, and not something that's at the core of unhappiness.

and something that has already been mentioned is that everybody has a tendency to be overconfident or unrealistic in the goals they set (like the thread on DC right now). they usually use the most successful cases as the hoped for result rather than using the base rate of everybody's results. statistically, those who are very successful in a field with any amount of random variables (like poker) during any short period of time are likely to have been the most lucky, regardless of skill level.

so constantly making goals like winning X amount of $$$dollars in X weeks which only the best players can achieve with the help of luck in the short-term is setting yourself up for a lot of pain down the road. rather, i want specific but attainable goals (SMART if you want) that measures incremental amounts of progress in areas i can control like increasing endurance or study efficiency or conservative winrates combined with longer time frames that mitigates luck in the short-term. but i'm not telling you anything new since you've been playing long enough to know this already.