Off Topic Poker Forums

Small detail, but important for those outside the US that are under the impression that "automatic" weapons are permitted in the US. An "automatic" weapon is basically a machine gun. NOT legal anywhere. Granted that guns can be modified for "automatic", but again NOT legal.

A "semi-automatic" weapon is as fast as you can pull the trigger. This means that a person does not have to manually kick the bullet and reload another. Basically if someone has to use the second hand to reset the gun, it is manual operation.

I see this OMG over-reaction quite often when people outside the US talk about legal weapons in the US. It is a small detail, but important to note -- especially when talking about gun-control. Machine Guns are not legal, and neither are overly sawed-off shotguns which can spray a room or crowd (18" is a standard minimum IIRC).

The Granny with the Gun deserves a key-to-the-city IMO.
She has more courage than 90% of the people in this thread (probably me included).

1. I did not see any other customers in the store. Phantom argument?
2. I doubt this is her first time being robbed. Did you notice the type and name of store?
........she probably was fed up with the repeated BS.
3. I think criminals love that attitude of "diplomacy" and "surrender". Studies overwhelming show that criminals go after easy prey -- that is from rape to robbery.
........but this give-up attitude, makes it easy for criminals. We should be afraid? Not them?

EDIT: 4. This pandering to criminals (just give up), is what creates laws that would put the Granny in jail for defending herself -- and her lively-hood. I bet that her neighbors (businesses) are fricking happy they have someone like her there.....someone with courage.

Yep. I think this woman deserves a reward. It is the sissy pandering to criminals that is the problem IMO. Apparently this old lady had enough of playing "tiddly winks" with them. I like it....and so does the rest of society. A poll would probably show 80-90% support. "Bravo. You go girl." lol


Video again. Any customers there? Imaginary fear?
EDIT: the news does say "owner and her customers"....but I do not see any customers.....I just see the five-stooges running from a little old lady. lol


.

When you use terms like "sissy pandering," you naturally evoke an emotional response. That's a poor way of debating though since it immediately puts people on the defensive and nothing ever gets accomplished. Thinking logically about a situation and acting in the best interest of one's health does not equal "sissy pandering" or any other emotionally-based term you would like to use. It is simply the best decision when you weigh your options and the consequences.

I find it very similar to defending your big blind. I feel like you would defend 100% in the BB when BT raises because folding would be a sissy move. You're just going to give up every time the BT raises? Screw that! The BT should fear us! I know - just to show him I'm going to play every hand in the BB and lose money in the long run! I don't surrender!

Small detail, but important for those outside the US that are under the impression that "automatic" weapons are permitted in the US. An "automatic" weapon is basically a machine gun. NOT legal anywhere. Granted that guns can be modified for "automatic", but again NOT legal.

This is wrong. You ARE legally allowed to own automatic weapons in the U.S.
Both police and government employees (those involved in law enforcement) are permitted to have automatic weapons. Additionally any civilian can buy an automatic weapon, as long as it was made before 1986. However these weapons are EXTREMELY expensive, and generally cost prohibitive, but they are legal.

The Granny with the Gun deserves a key-to-the-city IMO.
She has more courage than 90% of the people in this thread (probably me included).

There's a fine line between courage and stupidity.

1. I did not see any other customers in the store. Phantom argument?

There is at least one employee, so no, not a phantom argument.

2. I doubt this is her first time being robbed. Did you notice the type and name of store?
........she probably was fed up with the repeated BS.

Not sure the relevancy.

3. I think criminals love that attitude of "diplomacy" and "surrender". Studies overwhelming show that criminals go after easy prey -- that is from rape to robbery.
........but this give-up attitude, makes it easy for criminals. We should be afraid? Not them?

It's not about being afraid or not, it's about making a life or death decision.

EDIT: 4. This pandering to criminals (just give up), is what creates laws that would put the Granny in jail for defending herself -- and her lively-hood. I bet that her neighbors (businesses) are fricking happy they have someone like her there.....someone with courage.


Yep. I think this woman deserves a reward. It is the sissy pandering to criminals that is the problem IMO. Apparently this old lady had enough of playing "tiddly winks" with them. I like it....and so does the rest of society. A poll would probably show 80-90% support. "Bravo. You go girl." lol

I really shouldn't have to explain how 5 armed robbers would have a tactical advantage over anyone who hasn't yet drawn their weapon.

Video again. Any customers there? Imaginary fear?
EDIT: the news does say "owner and her customers"....but I do not see any customers.....I just see the five-stooges running from a little old lady. lol
.

Your knowledge of gun use is limited by what you see in the movies/tv. You have had 0 police/military training in the use of a gun in this specific situation. This clouds your judgment.

Are we to assume armed robbers are going to merely steal merchandise and not kill witnesses? Pretty sure granny with a gun acted with justified deadly force under penal code. Masks do fall off, people will say each others names, and armed robbers are sometimes mentally unstable ie.. cracked out, drunk & sick in the head. Like I stated before 1 responsible gun owner in the movie theater with a nut sack = less victims.

Go down to the local gun shop.
Purchase yourself a pistol.
Learn how to use it.
Enjoy your constitutional rights.

Are we to assume armed robbers are going to merely steal merchandise and not kill witnesses? Pretty sure granny with a gun acted with justified deadly force under penal code. Masks do fall off, people will say each others names, and armed robbers are sometimes mentally unstable ie.. cracked out, drunk & sick in the head.

I don't have a source that I can cite right now, but trust me when I say that most robberies do not involve murder. It's easy to sensationalize things, but if you want to look at it realistically, then you will see that fear and not logic is driving your thought process. I'm not saying that stuff like what you suggest doesn't happen, but assuming they will kill witnesses is a big leap.

1. I did not see any other customers in the store. Phantom argument?

Did see person literally shooting with customers between him and intruders in the first story you posted. Reasonable argument.

Btw obviously it should be totally legal to shoot someone who threatens you with a weapon, I don't think anyone is arguing with that.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/03/us/gun-culture-ireport/index.html#

"I would have shot back," Paul Lambert, 28, a veteran in Southern Indiana, wrote in his iReport. "If nothing else, the attacker would have to focus on the civilians shooting at him instead of all the unarmed people running around."

Perhaps. But more likely, it's wishful thinking to believe "you could have stopped the whole thing, if only you had been there with your .38." said Grayson Cash, an airline pilot who owned his first gun at 13 years old.

"As someone who has some firearm and self-defense training, I find it laughable to think that the average Joe, in a dark theater filled with teargas, could take out a well armed and armored assailant with a five-round .38 special," he said. "Arming more people will only eventually end in an accidental death."

Cash said he rarely fires weapons now, except for at the shooting range, and believes there should be strict rules for firearm purchases.

"I do not think the solution is to arm more people. I think the solution is to figure out what is triggering these people to do this, and to work on that."

Your knowledge of gun use is limited by what you see in the movies/tv. You have had 0 police/military training in the use of a gun in this specific situation. This clouds your judgment.

EDIT: yeah I got my chain yanked. Jeez.

EDIT-2: I now actually thank SCS for this. That was actually fun. So many life experiences (and friends) I had forgotten about.
==============

What do you know about my experiences?
The idea that I am responding to this remark, is silly, considering how many people make thinking posts.

Who do you think I have gone shooting with? Hillybillies?
The idea that you are so afraid of guns -- suggests that it is you that lacks experience.

Me? If you must know.
FromSacramento (friends and mostly free practice):
* Department of Corrections (state prison system) -- quite a few friends work(ed) here, and they often joked that sign up (believe it or not). Free ammo for practice.
* Sheriff Department (go Sheriff's in the Pig Bowl)
* ex-military (Sacto used to have two Air Force bases, Army, and Navy bases)
* My grandparents had many guns for hunting. Responsible ownership was the lesson.
*** mostly pheasant hunting....and squirrel/crow kills.

Bay Area:
* sporting compeition (dabbled with a friend's friend's setup)

Herdon, VA
* got my NRA card. Work collegue (from CzechRepulic) had a few Russian WW-II guns (very loud)

Mexico
* sport Pigeon shooting (illegal in the states I think....and very expensive sport anyways)
* currently, trying to get a hold of this Cuban acqaintence/trainer (soviet military training
etc
etc
Oh yeah. I forgot about the time I was on the other end of the barrel, my friends and I ran from a old farmer's orchard. Rock salt in a shotgun. I never felt it, but always heard it sucks big time, to get hit with rock salt. Very funny now, but back then -- heck, I never went back to THAT orchard. lol
etc
I don't shoot hardly at all anymore, and I only have an old 22 rifle that my grandmother gave me (hasn't been shot in ages.

By making this short-list, I am actually remembering a lot of crazy things I have done (or been near) in my life -- not listed here.

It does not make me an expert, but......
Now let's here about your experiences. BB guns? Pellet guns? Sling shots? Anything?



.

Did see person literally shooting with customers between him and intruders in the first story you posted. Reasonable argument.

Btw obviously it should be totally legal to shoot someone who threatens you with a weapon, I don't think anyone is arguing with that.

I like this second part. I think it is a huge consideration when talking about gun-control. There are stories of homeowners going to jail for shooting home-intruders. Criminals protected.

That is what I wonder about in Mexico too. I have heard conflicting conversations (listening to Mexicans talk). Hardcore no-guns for the population -- unless one is military, police, or rich (sport). So, I always wonder.......if one shoots an intruder in their home, are they okay -- or go to prison. I hear "yes" and "no" in the same conversation. I am not sure who to believe.

Sneakers - What is your training in the use of guns in close quarter combat?

It does not make me an expert, but......
Now let's here about your experiences. BB guns? Pellet guns? Sling shots? Anything?

ex-military. Trained in the use of firearms in close quarter combat on a weekly basis.

The idea that you are so afraid of guns -- suggests that it is you that lacks experience.

I think people should be able to own guns and to carry (with some limitations). I sure hope your reads aren't as bad playing poker as they are on a forum. I never made an argument for or against gun ownership, rather I was making the point that in the specific example that you used, that the old lady was at tactical disadvantage and drawing a weapon might not have been the smartest decision.

Sneakers - What is your training in the use of guns in close quarter combat?

ex-military. Trained in the use of firearms in close quarter combat on a weekly basis.

I think people should be able to own guns and to carry (with some limitations). I sure hope your reads aren't as bad playing poker as they are on a forum. I never made an argument for or against gun ownership, rather I was making the point that in the specific example that you used, that the old lady was at tactical disadvantage and drawing a weapon might not have been the smartest decision.

Yep, I concede that I misread you, as you did me, by saying my experience is only in movies and TV.

The only close-quarter training I have done is hand-to-hand combat (with demos) -- but admit it is pure simulation for knives or guns. Pretty much same thing for corrections friends, and that is where I know most of them from (training). But I have heard plenty of wicked stories from them about some hairy incidences. I guess that is why they get early retirement.

If you are trained as you say, I am surprised that you aren't cheering this old lady. Most of my law-inforcement friends who be saluting her for standing up against these punks. But I did admit that I may not have the courage that this woman has (and I would totally prefer a shotgun). How much do you want to bet, that she has had training? The incident was in Garden Grove if anyone runs across the info.

BTW, I initially I was irritated by your post, but after taking a trip down memory-lane.....no problem. I left out the scary stuff, that still to this day (decades later) has me standing to the side of front-doors when I knock. A silly old habit of mine, from when I lived in some pretty bad neighborhoods when I was young and broke.
EDIT: I wonder if my wife ever notices that I do that. Probably not. She probably thinks I am just being a gentleman, letting her go first. But it is a auto-reaction I had completely forgotten that I do. Too embarrassed to tell her the truth. I kind of have to laugh at myself.

Yep, I concede that I misread you, as you did me, by saying my experience is only in movies and TV.

It's probably because I didn't make my point clear, which isn't to say that people shouldn't be able to carry guns, but that just because you own a gun and you shoot it at the gun range, doesn't necessarily mean that you are capable of using it in a close quarters situation against multiple other gunmen (don't know if robbers in old lady video were actually armed), especially when they already have weapons drawn and yours is still concealed. Likewise, shooting at a target in a gun range, and shooting at an armed assailant in a crowded theater, where your vision is impaired by the lighting, and there are people running around in a panic are two very different scenarios.

Don't get me wrong, I am very happy for the old lady, but she was really lucky. The situation could have easily gone south very quickly.

It's probably because I didn't make my point clear, which isn't to say that people shouldn't be able to carry guns, but that just because you own a gun and you shoot it at the gun range, doesn't necessarily mean that you are capable of using it in a close quarters situation against multiple other gunmen (don't know if robbers in old lady video were actually armed), especially when they already have weapons drawn and yours is still concealed. Likewise, shooting at a target in a gun range, and shooting at an armed assailant in a crowded theater, where your vision is impaired by the lighting, and there are people running around in a panic are two very different scenarios.

Don't get me wrong, I am very happy for the old lady, but she was really lucky. The situation could have easily gone south very quickly.

I agree. For example if you're being robbed and someone already has a gun on you, it's suicidal to try to draw your weapon. Personally I'd hand over my wallet and be OK with that.

However if someone was a few feet away and tried mugging me with a knife, different story.
If I heard a window breaking in my house, different story.

If someone got the drop on you, the best thing to do IMO is simply cooperate. Unless you're like some uber ninja, you can't outrun 1000ft/s.

I agree. For example if you're being robbed and someone already has a gun on you, it's suicidal to try to draw your weapon. Personally I'd hand over my wallet and be OK with that.

However if someone was a few feet away and tried mugging me with a knife, different story.
If I heard a window breaking in my house, different story.

If someone got the drop on you, the best thing to do IMO is simply cooperate. Unless you're like some uber ninja, you can't outrun 1000ft/s.

Agree with all this. You aren't Jason Bourne people.

It's probably because I didn't make my point clear, which isn't to say that people shouldn't be able to carry guns, but that just because you own a gun and you shoot it at the gun range, doesn't necessarily mean that you are capable of using it in a close quarters situation against multiple other gunmen (don't know if robbers in old lady video were actually armed), especially when they already have weapons drawn and yours is still concealed. Likewise, shooting at a target in a gun range, and shooting at an armed assailant in a crowded theater, where your vision is impaired by the lighting, and there are people running around in a panic are two very different scenarios.

word

How about a machete? <start side derail off-topic>

Years ago, I backpacked/hitchhiked down the coast of Mexico ..... and found myself in Guatemala.
Whenever I cross the borders into other countries, I try to remember to do a check with a consulate/embassy for any warnings. Public Internet was in its infancy, so I do not even remember how I checked. But I did.

Anyways, story goes (while I am in Antigua), that two Germans were hiking one of the local volcanos -- with a guide.

Bandits show up. "Give up us your backpack"
German guys: "No way"
......bandit cuts off one of the guy's heads with the machete......and other German hands over his backpack (and lives).

This was confirmed by the US Embassy, along with the rape of a 13 year old (separate incident). Needless to say, I did not do the Volcano Tour. It was most likely a setup by the guides (at least that was the suspicion amongst the travelers).



Is that a WTF moment, or what? Just hand it over. That is the common wisdom. Don't be a hero. But I have never been in a situation like that. Not even for my wallet.

Here in Mexico. I have insurance on my SUV, so I would let it go easily. But my computer? I would beg and plead to please let me keep it (everything is on it). I know. Back it up, right?
/derail

=====================
I still have a feeling that the Granny had just finally had enough. That kind of business begs to be robbed for some reason -- maybe the cash and gold? lol
If anyone learns anymore about this, I would really be interested to know her background. It happened in Garden Grove, California.

Another news report, with a LOT more video of the 5-stooges.

EDIT: yeah I got my chain yanked. Jeez.

EDIT-2: I now actually thank SCS for this. That was actually fun. So many life experiences (and friends) I had forgotten about.
==============

What do you know about my experiences?
The idea that I am responding to this remark, is silly, considering how many people make thinking posts.

Who do you think I have gone shooting with? Hillybillies?
The idea that you are so afraid of guns -- suggests that it is you that lacks experience.

Me? If you must know.
FromSacramento (friends and mostly free practice):
* Department of Corrections (state prison system) -- quite a few friends work(ed) here, and they often joked that sign up (believe it or not). Free ammo for practice.
* Sheriff Department (go Sheriff's in the Pig Bowl)
* ex-military (Sacto used to have two Air Force bases, Army, and Navy bases)
* My grandparents had many guns for hunting. Responsible ownership was the lesson.
*** mostly pheasant hunting....and squirrel/crow kills.

Bay Area:
* sporting compeition (dabbled with a friend's friend's setup)

Herdon, VA
* got my NRA card. Work collegue (from CzechRepulic) had a few Russian WW-II guns (very loud)

Mexico
* sport Pigeon shooting (illegal in the states I think....and very expensive sport anyways)
* currently, trying to get a hold of this Cuban acqaintence/trainer (soviet military training
etc
etc
Oh yeah. I forgot about the time I was on the other end of the barrel, my friends and I ran from a old farmer's orchard. Rock salt in a shotgun. I never felt it, but always heard it sucks big time, to get hit with rock salt. Very funny now, but back then -- heck, I never went back to THAT orchard. lol
etc
I don't shoot hardly at all anymore, and I only have an old 22 rifle that my grandmother gave me (hasn't been shot in ages.

By making this short-list, I am actually remembering a lot of crazy things I have done (or been near) in my life -- not listed here.

It does not make me an expert, but......
Now let's here about your experiences. BB guns? Pellet guns? Sling shots? Anything?



.

Dam Sneakers I am from Sac and a knuckle dragger too! CDCR that is.

Are we to assume armed robbers are going to merely steal merchandise and not kill witnesses? Pretty sure granny with a gun acted with justified deadly force under penal code. Masks do fall off, people will say each others names, and armed robbers are sometimes mentally unstable ie.. cracked out, drunk & sick in the head. Like I stated before 1 responsible gun owner in the movie theater with a nut sack = less victims.

Go down to the local gun shop.
Purchase yourself a pistol.
Learn how to use it.
Enjoy your constitutional rights.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113657

i lived in that town when that happened. but i don't own a gun. even tho i carried an M-16 and M9 everyday for 4 years in the Marines, as a civilian, i don't carry.

if your core reason for carrying around a handgun in the civilian world is to lengthen your life, i say get your priorities straight:

Odds of death for selected causes in United States, 2008 (graphic)

guns are offensive weapons. professionals with guns get killed all the time when they're ambushed or surprised. guns are not an insurance policy, and offense is not the best defense. if someone who wants to assault or rob you sees you grab for your gun and thinks you're endangering his life, all you've done is increased your odds of dying.

if you want to lengthen your life, your time and money would be much better spent eating better (LCHF ftw), routine exercise, losing those excess pounds (that'll kill you just as good as a bullet to the heart), spend time with friends and family to lower stress, drive slower, look both ways before crossing the street, and enjoy the little time you have left on this earth instead of living in irrational fear and paranoia everyday.

911 is not always going to save you. Its perfectly ok to protect your family, friends, and yourself from being the victim of GBI. A hand gun is just another tool available for you to use. Not trying to piss anyone off or insult them.

I really shouldn't have to explain how 5 armed robbers would have a tactical advantage over anyone who hasn't yet drawn their weapon.

According to the news report by a local station that Sneakers linked to, only two were armed while the other three were holding pillowcases. The video shows one waving his gun around haphazardly while presumably to be barking out orders and the other man's gun is nowhere to be seen on the video. Any tactical advantage they had was nullified by their own stupidity and obvious inexperience. Dirty Harriet was provided with an opening and took it.

a spirited bump:
"I am not a sheepdog" by VuurwapenBlog (Youtube)

i think there's way too many people who carry without a realistic appreciation of what can happen in a firefight. i'd be just as afraid of getting shot by Joe Rambo if i was to head towards gunfire in one of these scenarios.

and it's telling that a lot of the people who have actually been in the military/LE are pretty meh about getting into a gunfight (me included, but i've never fired a shot in anger, thank goodness). i think it's because experience has taught them that reality is far from what we expect in our heads--it's far more stressful (disorienting, scared, sick feeling in stomach, tunnel-vision), it's unfamiliar (unless you train on some range with people running around downrange and you don't have hearing protection and nobody telling you when you can or can't shoot), and there's a real feeling of futility and vulnerability in not being able to effect the situation a lot of the time even with powerful weapons and backup.

people have this mistaken idea from action movies and games that having someone shoot at you or being the hero will give them some kind of superhuman rush, but that's bs. it makes you feel weak and sick, and shooting back doesn't make that feeling go away. there's nothing cool about realizing you aren't brave.

but don't get me wrong, i have nothing but respect to those professionals who are willing to do it and pay the ultimate price so we don't have to.

... i've edited this post a lot. i took back some things i wrote earlier since when i was a kid, i too wanted to prove something and joined the Marines thinking it would make be brave. i credit the experience with teaching me to to keep moving despite fear. maybe that's bravery, i dunno. but i never felt brave (like the kind of feeling you get when you get drunk maybe, but that is a fantasy, only the crazy or dumb are without fear), and it certainly wasn't glamorous imo. and i hate it when people think it is. but movies and games are not reality. hell, i played FPS wargames (CS ftw) for a long time after i got out. it's a lot more fun than the real thing, i'll tell you that much.

[ed: wow, what a convoluted post]

Came across this today and thought it was pretty relevant:

http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=210371