Off Topic Poker Forums

lol You should have read the crime victim stats.
Canada 23.8% crime victims ..... 7th of 20 (worse than both the US and Denmark)

Somehow, I get the feeling that people watch too many movies and TV, to believe the US is the most dangerous place on the planet. But I do have to admit that the real numbers surprise me too.

Harper (our prime minister, unfortunately) fired a ton of people from statistics canada when he took office. I have little faith in the stats coming out of here now. You should know that Harper has been pushing for building more prisons since he took office. He lacks support for addiction and mental health services, relying on putting these people in prison instead of addressing the real issues.

Before you try and interpret really broad statistics, 7 th / 20 for example, you need to understand that these sources have been tampered with in Canada.

No problem. I think each country has issues -- because people are human (regardless of their country). Each country has history, to which I always like listening/reading.
Feel free to pull up other stats.

I do remember a violent incident when I was in Vancouver, BC in the 90's. Very interesting.
Apparently, someone shot the daughter of the Chinese Mafia (or similar organization) with a crossbow in a university parking lot. They only found her and the arrow. Silent death.
......The reason I knew about it, was because the father had flyers posted up all over the city, with a multi-million dollar (Canadian) reward....for information leading to the criminal. I always wondered what would happen if the father caught the guy. We probably would never know about it.

Improva, I am just demonstrating that your home country, the model you have used to lambast the US economy/laws, is not all peaches-and-cream. Your country has plenty of issues too, regardless of the welfare benefits or laws.

You speak as though Denmark is better, and say that it is "scalable" to the US?
You even said this talking about the US...
".....1/6th of the US population lives below the poverty threshold. Maybe that is why the crime rate in the US is insane? "

But what I have shown you, is that Denmark has its share of issues.........

High Poverty not drastically lower....13.4% vs 15.1% US
"Crime Rate" (your words) higher..... Denmark 23% victims vs US 21.1% victims
Rape Victims 0.4% tied
Suicide Rates higher..... Denmark 16.9/100k vs US 15.3/100k
Assault Victims slightly higher..... Denmark 1.4% .... US 1.2% .... Canada 2.3% .... Australia 2.4%

And then there is this very telling Crime and Safety report for Denmark (repeating here). In this report, I see a lot of tell-tale signs and possible correlations regarding the causes of crime.

I am not saying that I would not mind visiting or living in Denmark. (I bet the women are nice looking) But what I am saying, that if you want to use Denmark as a model of perfection.......then the facts do matter. Let's be honest. Denmark has it share of problems. Economy-wise, Denmark siphons off of other country economies (not bad, but true). Honestly, it surprised me a little to see the stats. Interesting country.

Poverty-level: The correct number is 7.9%. It used to be around 4%. The problem is that our government is getting little too inspired by the US. Other nordic countries are doing a lot better - and their system is pretty much the same a the Danish.

In order to help you with your understanding of statistics:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Crime_statistics
When you have read and understood that page we can continue our debate.

ATM we have the problem that 25% of the prison inmates are from eastern Europe. I expect the government to deal with that issue pretty swiftly.

The report you posted is not a big surprise. Due to the rise in poverty from 4% to 7.9% we do see more crime. And it is getting slightly more violent. We have had shootings on the street!!! Something you never saw 5 years ago. We average around 8 homocides / year.

Your claim that Denmark siphons is a little strange. I'm not sure we have the same understanding of the word siphons.

I, for one, wish there were more regulations for parenting.

I wish there were a way to do this without turning into a NAZI like regime. We seriously have it ass backwards in this country... the poor & stupid spit out kids like crazy while the affluent and educated take their time.

We don't even need to discuss the disparity between the two types of offspring because if you're looking for a gap between the haves and have nots, it very clearly begins with who your parents are. Stupid & poor parents = stupid & poor offspring.

when the stupid & poor have a birthrate that's like quadruple everyone else, it's a matter of time until system collapse IMO. But even if that weren't true, it's still woefully unfair to the children for the retarded to pro-create.... except.... the retarded don't know that they are.
Frustrating!!

Sorry. I do not believe your number for Denmark poverty. There is a huge descrepency between 7.9% and 13.4%. 5.5 points. I am sure that we can realign the US numbers also -- with what recipe you are using. The stats are the stats. You condemned the US for the Poverty-Threshold and "insane crime rate". But you don't agree with the number for the Poverty-Threshold or Crime Rate for Denmark. Very convenient to adjust Denmark's stat -- but not adjust the US number too. MEH

".....1/6th (edit: actually 15.1%) of the US population lives below the poverty threshold. Maybe that is why the crime rate in the US is insane? "

Repeat: Denmark's "crime rate" and "poverty" are not sparkling, no matter how it is sliced and dice in stats.

ATM we have the problem that 25% of the prison inmates are from eastern Europe. I expect the government to deal with that issue pretty swiftly.

So, you agree that there is an issue in Denmark, right? I wish we could deal with things like this "pretty swiftly". Unfortunately, in the US, any attempt to deal with these same problems is seen as "bigotry" or "racism". Denmark is sitting in a "glass house" from what I can see.

Just be real, if you are going to continue with the Denmark-knows-best theme.
I have nothing against Denmark, but you keep using it as a model that scales for the US.

As far as the other Nordic neighbors, choose one. I am learning a lot here. I like studying history and cultures. Very interesting.
I just finished listening to another of Thomas Sowell's book for the second time. I think anyone who likes history (economics, social, political) will enjoy it. (this is just a side-note)
Conquests And Cultures: An International History


BTW, you have ignored that Norway just had a 1-year anniversary for a 77 person massacre. Strong gun laws. Strong welfare system. Strong education system.
EDIT: frankly, this is one perfect example, where if people had weapons, they could have stopped the guy. Wide open space, and no one could stop him? For him, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Too easy for the criminal.

I'm not even sure that comparing the U.S. to Denmark is even relevant at all. They are two vastly different countries. We are talking about a population of 5+ million vs. 300+ million.

Following this discussion...

Regarding the poverty level in the US and Denmark:

Even though it might be backed by some of the statistics claiming the level of poverty in both countries is at about the same level seems really absurd when you have been to both countries. I have not often seen so much middle class as in Denmark and all in all their system just seems to work better than in a lot of other countries (and I live in the EU also).

sorry if this is considered a derail

Sorry. I do not believe your number for Denmark poverty. There is a huge descrepency between 7.9% and 13.4%. 5.5 points. I am sure that we can realign the US numbers also -- with what recipe you are using. The stats are the stats. You condemned the US for the Poverty-Threshold and "insane crime rate". But you don't agree with the number for the Poverty-Threshold or Crime Rate for Denmark. Very convenient to adjust Denmark's stat -- but not adjust the US number too. MEH

If you want to use the international scale here you go:
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=POVERTY#

I was being nice when I accepted national scales.

Repeat: Denmark's "crime rate" and "poverty" are not sparkling, no matter how it is sliced and dice in stats.

I never claimed they sparkled... Just that the US is messed up pretty bad... and not for the reasons you think.

Just be real, if you are going to continue with the Denmark-knows-best theme.
I have nothing against Denmark, but you keep using it as a model that scales for the US.

As far as the other Nordic neighbors, choose one. I am learning a lot here. I like studying history and cultures. Very interesting.

BTW, you have ignored that Norway just had a 1-year anniversary for a 77 person massacre. Strong gun laws. Strong welfare system. Strong education system.
EDIT: frankly, this is one perfect example, where if people had weapons, they could have stopped the guy. Wide open space, and no one could stop him? For him, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Too easy for the criminal.

Im not claiming that Denmark is best. I'm just saying that the things the US should do is more or less the opposite of what you suggest - because that would only lead to more poverty.

Regarding the Uttoya massacre. Why do you assume I have ignored it? Do you want me to mention everything? How about how the arrogance in the US foreign policy lead to 9/11? If you knew anything about science you would know that it does not make sense to include extraordinary events in the data set.

Good luck with your studies..

/derail

For the gun loving people. Use Switzerland as your example. Happy shooting.

.....For the gun loving people. Use Switzerland as your example. Happy shooting.

I always found Switzerland to be interesting. Officiall "Neutral" country, but merchants for hire? Every househhold is required to have a gun, but they apparently count the ammo (how often, I don't know). Every male (not sure about females) must spend time in their military. Three main languages (as I remember). Very interesting country.

The Norway massacre deserves mention and acknowledgement for your touting of "Scandinavian" countries and bashing of a lot of things in the US. The lack of a response or analysis is interesting -- because this thread is about gun-control.
This is not a derail at all.
* Norway is "scandinavian"
* Tough gun control, welfare system, high education sytem (all from what I understand).
= not really a derail and worth hearing your analysis (not a one-liner please)


What I think I see here, is that you are sitting in your ivory-tower, taking shots at the US. But your model societies don't seem to fit the vision you are proposing (according to my research).

A little bit of BIAS in your analysis, Improva? I know you are proud of your country (as I am of mine), but Denmark just is not the great model.you have made it out to be. Denmark's stats are way too close to what you call "insane" for the US. Blaming it on Eastern Europeans would have you virtually tarred-and-feathered in the US by the nutty PC crowd. Crazy as that is -- because I agree with you, that when there is a problem -- it should be "fixed", not hidden with a bandage.

And as of yet, I don't see any of the other Nordic countries being any better. You can call it a derail and knock me down -- but I am only investigating those things you yourself proposed.

not a derail at all You claimed the following.
Poverty in US => "inssane crrime-rate in US" => the problem to "fix" for this thread's main topic.


NOTE: for any Danish out there, I have nothing against Denmark (or any other country). Just trying to hold Improva to his proposals and logic. For me, I am not sure why this topic is so important to someone who lives across the ocean from the US.

If you want to use the international scale here you go:
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=POVERTY#

I was being nice when I accepted national scales.



I never claimed they sparkled... Just that the US is messed up pretty bad... and not for the reasons you think.



Im not claiming that Denmark is best. I'm just saying that the things the US should do is more or less the opposite of what you suggest - because that would only lead to more poverty.

Regarding the Uttoya massacre. Why do you assume I have ignored it? Do you want me to mention everything? How about how the arrogance in the US foreign policy lead to 9/11? If you knew anything about science you would know that it does not make sense to include extraordinary events in the data set.

Good luck with your studies..

/derail

For the gun loving people. Use Switzerland as your example. Happy shooting.

I totally agree that the U.S. has a lot of problems that most citizens do not see. A good example being that our foreign policy is what lead to 9/11. Americans have a tendency to just believe that America is best therefore the rest of the world should follow our lead. I am not in this camp. However, I'm not convinced that gun control is the issue. There certainly are more important things that need to be addressed.

While I agree with you that Uttoya is an extraordinary event that isn't really relevant, it's interesting to note that this debate got started by the same type of event.

BTW, you have ignored that Norway just had a 1-year anniversary for a 77 person massacre. Strong gun laws. Strong welfare system. Strong education system.
EDIT: frankly, this is one perfect example, where if people had weapons, they could have stopped the guy. Wide open space, and no one could stop him? For him, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Too easy for the criminal.

How many of these mass shootings have occurred in Norway in the last 5 years compared to the USA? 10? 15? 25? That's why the Norway event is irrelevant. It is an anomaly, not a recurring crime.

Shockingly, I'm with Sneakers on the slippery slope argument vs. this example. If the police station is the only place you can get bullets, how long before the authorities decide to close the shop?

Just a quick note on slippery slope arguments in general. This from the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy "Slippery Slope arguments with dubious causal assumptions are often classed as fallacies under the general heading of the fallacy of the false cause". Some famous slippery slopes include the domino theory of American Communist-era foreign policy and the apparently wide spread belief among the religious right that same-sex marriage will somehow lead to the dissolution of the family. Finally, the "gateway" theory of drug use is a commonly used slippery slope argument against the legalization of marijuana. None of these are particularly auspicious arguments.

I always found Switzerland to be interesting. Officiall "Neutral" country, but merchants for hire? Every househhold is required to have a gun, but they apparently count the ammo (how often, I don't know). Every male (not sure about females) must spend time in their military. Three main languages (as I remember). Very interesting country.

The Norway massacre deserves mention and acknowledgement for your touting of "Scandinavian" countries and bashing of a lot of things in the US. The lack of a response or analysis is interesting -- because this thread is about gun-control.
This is not a derail at all.
* Norway is "scandinavian"
* Tough gun control, welfare system, high education sytem (all from what I understand).
= not really a derail and worth hearing your analysis (not a one-liner please)

I don't agree.. and I'm out of patience

What I think I see here, is that you are sitting in your ivory-tower, taking shots at the US. But your model societies don't seem to fit the vision you are proposing (according to my research).

You have done research? Edit: Ahh .. sorry I associate the word research with scientific work.

A little bit of BIAS in your analysis, Improva? I know you are proud of your country (as I am of mine), but Denmark just is not the great model.you have made it out to be. Denmark's stats are way too close to what you call "insane" for the US. Blaming it on Eastern Europeans would have you virtually tarred-and-feathered in the US by the nutty PC crowd. Crazy as that is -- because I agree with you, that when there is a problem -- it should be "fixed", not hidden with a bandage.

I'm not proud of Denmark - I don't even consider myself a Dane. I'm a fan of logic.
I did not blame people from eastern Europe. You confuse symptom with problem. We have a lot of criminals from eastern Europe because eastern Europe is so poor. That is the problem and longterm Denmark should help fix it. Short term we can arrange transport of the criminals back to their home country.

The stats you refer to still don't mean what you think they mean. Stop reposting non-sense.

not a derail at all You claimed the following.
Poverty in US => "inssane crrime-rate in US" => the problem to "fix" for this thread's main topic.

That is not what I suggested.

I suggested that poverty in the US might be one of the reasons for the insane crimes rates in the US. Because poverty leads to less education and education is reverse correlated to crime.

There can be many other reasons for crime than the lack of education.

Then you confused some crime stats and I tried to tell why that was not a good way to compare things. I have given that some more thought. Maybe it makes sense to use how large a percentage of the BNP a country spends on fighting crime as a measure.

Then you found some strange poverty numbers.. which were pretty wack... I helped you in the right direction.

I totally agree that the U.S. has a lot of problems that most citizens do not see. A good example being that our foreign policy is what lead to 9/11.Americans have a tendency to just believe that America is best therefore the rest of the world should follow our lead. I am not in this camp. However, I'm not convinced that gun control is the iss ue. There certainly are more important things that need to be addressed.

While I agree with you that Uttoya is an extraordinary event that isn't really relevant, it's interesting to note that this debate got started by the same type of event.

I wish more people would realize that about 9/11. Even at the end of my terrorism class, we still had people talking about how 9/11 happened because "they're evil and they hate us because we're free". Terrorism hasn't and won't ever have anything to do simply with another country being free.

Steppin,
They're still VERY isolated incidents in the US, and not the norm either. They're just uber sensationalized whenever they happen.

Murder isn't even in the top 15 causes of death for 2011(page 5):
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_04.pdf
Parkinson's disease, and Pneumonia kill more people then people.

I wish more people would realize that about 9/11. Even at the end of my terrorism class, we still had people talking about how 9/11 happened because "they're evil and they hate us because we're free". Terrorism hasn't and won't ever have anything to do simply with another country being free.

I think you have to be pretty naive to not realize it. The thing that really bothered me was how everyone celebrated when we finally killed Bin Laden. I mean I get that people were angry and it was sort of a revenge thing, but at what cost? How many lives were lost and resources used in this process? Besides, you can kill a terrorist but you can't kill an ideology, and until some things change, there are always going to be terrorists threatening our country imo.

Not trying to derail....

Steppin,
They're still VERY isolated incidents in the US, and not the norm either. They're just uber sensationalized whenever they happen.

Sure, but they are relatively more common in the US than Norway, making that incident irrelevant to whatever point sneakers was trying to make

Sure, but they are relatively more common in the US than Norway, making that incident irrelevant to whatever point sneakers was trying to make

lol There you go again Razor. I handed you the example for you own argument on a silver platter, and you couldn't see it.

77 people shot like fish in a fish bowl, and no one could defend themselves. Just because it is isolated (for Norway), doesn't make it irrelevant. I do not understand that thinking at all. 77 people massacred in a tough-gun-control country, and "MEH not relevant". Strange people. Oh well. I tried to help you on the self-defense argument (as well as the procurement argument). (shaking head lol)

Norway is 5,003,000 vs 314,000,000 (x63 size for calcs on number of incidents per x)



BTW, just got back from seeing Batman. Villain was like a Che Guevara, with fake court and all -- condemning the wealthy and previous establishment to death etc). Good movie, but tainted by thinking about the Colorado incident.

.

I think you have to be pretty naive to not realize it. The thing that really bothered me was how everyone celebrated when we finally killed Bin Laden. I mean I get that people were angry and it was sort of a revenge thing, but at what cost? How many lives were lost and resources used in this process? Besides, you can kill a terrorist but you can't kill an ideology, and until some things change, there are always going to be terrorists threatening our country imo.

Not trying to derail....

Terrorism isn't really a derail, considering mass shootings could be "terrorist" incidents. The only thing I disagree with is your very last sentence. Until all of mankind shares the same ideology (which is never going to happen) then there will always be terrorists, regardless.

They've been around since the dawn of history (although "terrorism" is a relatively recent term), and eliminating terrorism is almost as impossible as eliminating crime.

There isn't even a ubiquitous definition of terrorism. The CO incident could be considered terrorism to some, to me it's not. Hell according to the U.S. government's definition of terrorism, protestors are low level terrorists.

Total Crime Victims (stats):
US 21.1% ......15th of 20 countries
Denmark 23% ....... 10th of 20
AND ANOTHER HOLY CRAP MOMENT..... Australia 30%......1st of 20
I never saw that coming. Wow!

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_vic-crime-total-victims


.

Note what it says under those statistics.

'Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.'

I live in Australia and I can tell you its just plain ridiculous to think that it is not a safer place than say the Lebanon, Thailand, some parts of America. Not many Australians think it is necessary to carry a gun for self defence (fellow Australians feel free to disagree or comment).

I think the gun debate in the States has such a long way to go. There is a culture and conditioning and experiential element to a long history of ownership of guns. ie. your parents own guns, you are much more likely to own them yourself. You will be more likely to see gun ownership as a normal and justifiable aspect of life.

If you grow up in Australia or UK and gun ownership is the minority you are much more likely to see the world in a different way.

Of the above arguments that owning a gun is somehow necessary to defend against a high crime rate. How do people not see how blatantly ridiculous this is???

How is it justifiable for this guy in Denver to own an automatic assault rifle capable of emptying 50-60 cartridges in a minute???? The rifle mercifully jammed so the carnage could have been much worse.

Even in that situation how would someone else having a gun to shoot back at him have helped unless they got him with one shot?????? It would have been a gunfight in a cinema and even more people could have been killed.

Can those in the US see that it is possible that a long history of gun ownership and the 'right to bear arms' etc may have an undue influence on your countrymens views ????????

Terrorism isn't really a derail, considering mass shootings could be "terrorist" incidents. The only thing I disagree with is your very last sentence. Until all of mankind shares the same ideology (which is never going to happen) then there will always be terrorists, regardless.

They've been around since the dawn of history (although "terrorism" is a relatively recent term), and eliminating terrorism is almost as impossible as eliminating crime.

There isn't even a ubiquitous definition of terrorism. The CO incident could be considered terrorism to some, to me it's not. Hell according to the U.S. government's definition of terrorism, protestors are low level terrorists.

I agree with you that terrorism will always exist. I guess my point was just that we are more often a target because of our foreign policy.

These "look at this funny video of an old lady chasing out armed thieves with a gun" stories weird me out. If everyone just cooperated they'd almost certainly just lose their money/goods, something insurance could deal with. By "fighting back", especially when out numbered in a situation which isn't life or death, sounds like a really silly thing to do. Sure it worked out this time but x% they either shoot back, you shoot and stray bullets hit innocent victims or they come back at a later time for vengeance. I'm sure when that happens it's just reported as these terrible criminals came in and started shooting people rather than hey this idiot shopkeeper/person unnecessarily escalated the situation.

These "look at this funny video of an old lady chasing out armed thieves with a gun" stories weird me out.

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

These "look at this funny video of an old lady chasing out armed thieves with a gun" stories weird me out. If everyone just cooperated they'd almost certainly just lose their money/goods, something insurance could deal with. By "fighting back", especially when out numbered in a situation which isn't life or death, sounds like a really silly thing to do. Sure it worked out this time but x% they either shoot back, you shoot and stray bullets hit innocent victims or they come back at a later time for vengeance. I'm sure when that happens it's just reported as these terrible criminals came in and started shooting people rather than hey this idiot shopkeeper/person unnecessarily escalated the situation.

Definitely seems to be an EV calc where it's not beneficial most of the time. However, it would really suck to die or have someone else die when you could have done something to prevent it. Not saying it makes it +EV, but it's one of those things where you'll be playing it over and over in your head if you sat idly by instead of doing something that could have maybe possibly one time in 100 helped.

These "look at this funny video of an old lady chasing out armed thieves with a gun" stories weird me out. If everyone just cooperated they'd almost certainly just lose their money/goods, something insurance could deal with. By "fighting back", especially when out numbered in a situation which isn't life or death, sounds like a really silly thing to do. Sure it worked out this time but x% they either shoot back, you shoot and stray bullets hit innocent victims or they come back at a later time for vengeance. I'm sure when that happens it's just reported as these terrible criminals came in and started shooting people rather than hey this idiot shopkeeper/person unnecessarily escalated the situation.

If I was in a store that was being robbed, I would be more fearful of my life after the old lady draws her weapon.

yeah I think it should be reserved for situations that are either life/death, or where there's no other way out. Even if I had one, if someone carjacked me, they can have my car. If I'm in a store and the shopkeeper is getting assaulted by the robbers, then I'd use it.