Off Topic Poker Forums

yes, it would be better for the system if everybody paid into it all the time. but there will be other people who game the system so now i feel like a sucker if i don't game it as well. the system will break eventually, and i refuse to throw my money into a black hole while waiting for it to happen.

That's a fair way to feel and one that I suspect a lot of people would agree with. I could easily just say 'do what's right even if other people are doing what's wrong' but we both know it's not that simple. There are larger societal norms and societal morality issues at play here that we aren't going to solve any time soon. I will say that, ideally, each of us should strive to do what's right even if it puts us at a small disadvantage to those people who are willing to ride on the coattails of people who put in the extra effort. That said, no one does (or could do) this 100% of the time.

also, do poor people get chemo treatments if they get cancer? i thought hospitals are only obligated to give emergency services?

I don't know the answer. I know hospitals have to provide emergency care regardless of the person's ability to pay, but long term care? Not sure. I did a quick Google study and several suggestions kept popping up like 'charity fundraisers' or 'government assistance programs' but I couldn't find any hard evidence of actual programs with real money. I'm sure they exist, but probably not enough to pay for every sick poor person.

On an interesting note, I saw a few links to drug companies that run charities where they provide their drugs (such as chemotherapy drugs) for free or reduced cost to people who apply and can show a need. That's pretty cool, but isn't exactly a solution to the problem that these drugs can be crazy expensive.

I just don't think you can game the system just yet since it hasn't been fully implemented. If you want to hedge yourself against unforeseen health risks, then a c-note per month seems respectable.

I thought of a decent poker analogy to this whole topic. USA health care (insurance system) is like a bad beat jackpot...

With a bad beat jackpot, chips are siphoned out of the poker economy, and should some lucky player hit pay dirt, you know that money won't circulate back in. You also know that the system has built in inefficiency where $1 into the BBJ won't equate to $1 out of the BBJ. You also know that YOUR odds for coming ahead in such a system are extremely small. All of this is similar to how the health system in the USA works, except it's even worse than a BBJ.... imagine if every orbit, the house takes out a larger percentage for this BBJ, and it's not a fixed increase but a percentage increase so that it's exponential over the course of several orbits. You're sitting there calculating how many orbits until the BBJ consumes the entire pot. Meanwhile you continue to notice fewer and fewer chips circulating... and the increases come two ways, the longer you sit, the more they take from YOU and the longer the game goes the more they take from a newcomer.

Then if you try to talk about it, you realize you're a thinking and wining-type of player that sees all this, while the vast majority are recreational and LOVE the idea of the BBJ even though you can see it's bad for the game. Well... life apparently has these same fishes, and if the system is a democracy... well, the fish out number the thinking players. It's a matter of time... and the system is geared for fish, not for winning players (that would pretty much rather have a game straight up with some "fair" rake, etc etc)

:-)

i haven't had health insurance for the past decade so what's a year more? the only reason to get it is if 1. i have a pre-existing condition right now that i don't know of and 2. Romney gets elected and repeals the ACA.

:\

as for it being the "right" thing to do, man can't i just give to charity once i get rich?

but how "right" is it that a bunch of sick people will now get health insurance when they haven't been paying into the system all this time? someone won the jackpot alright.

the pre-existing clause is there for a reason. yes, it sucks for sick people. but it's there for a reason. private insurance isn't welfare. i don't see why these insurance companies wouldn't just pull out of the US. oh wait, the US Govt is going to pay for it, that's why. and how does the government pay for something, with our money, so taxes will go up. so we're all going to pay for it, one way or another, whether we want to or not... nobody beats the house.

but for major accidents and sicknesses where you're sitting in a hospital bed for weeks or getting ongoing treatment--things where the costs spiral out of control--then there's time to buy a policy.

Actually there's not. Even if you buy insurance yourself there's an enrollment period, and it's probably around 90 days.

That's WHY you get insurance in the first place. It's far easier to pay the 100 bucks a month, for a catastrophic situation, then to F-up the rest of your life by being bankrupt.

I'm in the same boat. I'm 30, i'm in good health, and hardly ever get sick.
However suppose I get into a car accident tonight on my way to the casino.

An ambulance comes (600 bucks minimum).
Maybe I need to be put on a helicopter (around here they charge 5k just to start the engine, getting flown to the hospital is around 15).
God forbid I get a head injury and have to spend a week or 2 in the ICU. EACH day in the ICU can run you 10-20k or more!
But I recover, but still have to spend another week in the most expensive hotel around (a hospital room) which cost several thousand dollars per day, and you have the ongoing tests, meds, and therapy (none of which are free or cheap).

So lets just say after a month in the hospital I owe a cool 500k. Well medical debt IS dischargable ( meaning you can declare bankruptcy to get rid of it), but if you own any assets they get liquidated.

So your house, car, stock portfolio, and all of that get seized by the court, sold, and the money is given to the hospital.

Are healthcare costs grossly out of whack? Of course they are. Is it REALLY worth it to pass up even on bad insurance to say 1200 a year, not at all.

Edit:
TLDR analogy:
You don't get homeowners insurance for the chance some kid in the neighborhood hits a baseball through your window. You have it for the time a tornado throws a Prius through your kitchen!

I haven't read the bill (2,000 pages + long).

Neither did congress. As Nancy Pelosi said "We have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it."

Actually there's not. Even if you buy insurance yourself there's an enrollment period, and it's probably around 90 days.

you convinced me. i've accepted that i'm gambling on major accidents.

However suppose I get into a car accident tonight on my way to the casino.

So your house, car, stock portfolio, and all of that get seized by the court, sold, and the money is given to the hospital.

Are healthcare costs grossly out of whack? Of course they are. Is it REALLY worth it to pass up even on bad insurance to say 1200 a year, not at all.

but how likely is that kind of catastrophic accident? as i said before, i don't insure myself against terrorist attacks on planes either. and people are already required to have bodily injury liability car insurance (for the usual whiplash stuff). also, if i know i don't have health insurance, i'm definitely not going to do something stupid that causes accidents (and i do drive like grandma).

all this catastrophic accident fearmongering is just a reverse of lottery mania. take the emotions out of it, and the numbers reveal the same, two bad bets.

So what about things like blood work? PT? Other preventive care? I feel like there's tons of reasons to have health insurance beyond catastrophic stuff, although I guess you could pay for the above things OOP.

As far as gaming the system goes, I thought the penalties go up a ton after the first couple of years, yes? A quick check says it's 2.5% of income by 2016, so if you make 50k or more you'd prefer a $100/month plan.

i've accepted that i'm gambling on accidents.


but how likely is that kind of catastrophic accident? as i said before, i don't insure myself against terrorist attacks on planes either. and people are already required to have bodily injury liability car insurance (for the usual whiplash stuff). also, if i know i don't have health insurance, i'm definitely not going to do something stupid that causes accidents (and i do drive like grandma).

Just because people are "legally required" to have insurance, doesn't mean everyone does unfortunately. Working in EMS I've seen a ton of car accident where the one of the people had a suspended license and no insurance.

I'm definitely not saying it's likely. I'm really not too worried about dying on an airplane, or a meteor falling on me (despite the fact that have have above 0% chance of happening).

I was just trying to point out it's not the "common" stuff that you have insurance for.

Is it likely a moose is going to jump through your windshield on the highway tonight? Not at all, but it IS possible.

Edit:
And believe me man I've been in the same situation financially as well. Where paying for insurance is an expense I'd rather not have, and really couldn't afford. I'd rather have it and not need it, then be without.

and i do drive like grandma

So disappointing given your Driver avatar. He's like a modern day gunslinger a la Clint Eastwood.

and as a side note, I LOVE your threads... dude, you deliver time and time again. I guess I'm saying that I like your style.

I currently pay for my own insurance (mid 30s), and each year it's gone up substantially (percentage wise) even though I've gone twice to the doctor in about 4 years. In other words, I'm paying for someone else's use. (but that's really the entire system that's been built)...

That is how insurance works private or public.

So what about things like blood work? PT? Other preventive care? I feel like there's tons of reasons to have health insurance beyond catastrophic stuff, although I guess you could pay for the above things OOP.

i admit that i haven't stepped inside a doctor's office in years. i could be setting myself up for a big fall, so this is actually the most convincing argument for me. i would probably go to the doctor if i felt like i needed to get something for my weekly payments.

As far as gaming the system goes, I thought the penalties go up a ton after the first couple of years, yes? A quick check says it's 2.5% of income by 2016, so if you make 50k or more you'd prefer a $100/month plan.

according to this article, it's 2.5% if over 50K income but capped at 5k. it definitely seems better for people at higher incomes to get their own health plans. i'm only at the $700 fine level tho. but then there's the limitations put on enforcement of the fine (and the funny reason why it was deemed constitutional by the Supreme Court). this article says the fines can only be taken from tax refunds. i haven't gotten a refund in years!

although I guess you could pay for the above things OOP.

Just so you know, using OOP to mean something other than out of position on a poker forum is forbidden. Please refrain from doing so in the future, else I'll impose a forum tax that is a % of your income. To protect yourself from said tax, feel free to purchase forum insurance. I can't force you to take that option, but I rob you at will should you decide against it.

Just because people are "legally required" to have insurance, doesn't mean everyone does unfortunately. Working in EMS I've seen a ton of car accident where the one of the people had a suspended license and no insurance.

i gotta update my uninsured motorist coverage then... oops!

I'm definitely not saying it's likely. I'm really not too worried about dying on an airplane, or a meteor falling on me (despite the fact that have have above 0% chance of happening).

I was just trying to point out it's not the "common" stuff that you have insurance for.

Is it likely a moose is going to jump through your windshield on the highway tonight? Not at all, but it IS possible.

Edit:
And believe me man I've been in the same situation financially as well. Where paying for insurance is an expense I'd rather not have, and really couldn't afford. I'd rather have it and not need it, then be without.

i'm in a good situation, actually, since my company's plan is really cheap but also really good (like $20 copays and $0 deductible in-network good). i can afford it, but i'm just weighing my options. it's a close call for me.

So disappointing given your Driver avatar. He's like a modern day gunslinger a la Clint Eastwood.

and as a side note, I LOVE your threads... dude, you deliver time and time again. I guess I'm saying that I like your style.

sorry, and thanks. i like my threads too.

Does your healthcare plan include dental? Mine pays for itself on regular check ups for myself alone. I'm Canadian but I am talking about my work health plan. You are right to do a cost/risk analysis of course but the risk can be so catastrophic for you, your loved ones and family that $1200 a year can be a pretty reasonable amount of money. When I was young I didn't even think about this stuff but I guess as you get older and you see more of these highly rare "random" events occurring to people all around you that it seems more and more like a good bet.