Off Topic Poker Forums

Hey guys,

First of i'll start by saying i'm a pretty cynical person when it comes to alternative therapies etc like the next guy.

A couple of years ago I went on a stunning trip with my gf on a cruise across the med. Loved it. Anyway, shortly before this trip, I bruised my kneecap playing football (or 'soccer' as the US like to call it), and so walking was a little sore.

One day on the cruise when we are out at sea, I notice a sign near the pool area to the entrance of the spa that said 'acupuncture, free consultation'.

I didn't at this point know a single thing about acupuncture. My mind starting putting 2 and 2 together. COULD this reduce swelling in my knee? I am on vacation. Who cares, lets go see the acupuncture person, it's free to find out.

So i book an appointment and go check it out. The guy I saw basically said yes he could help (no surprises there), after a chat I agree to have some treatment. Then it dawned on me. Sh%$, I hate needles! What if I go all funny! I'd signed on the dotted line at this point and filled in a questionaire (got a bit carried away I guess) and next thing I know he's showing me the needles.

These needles are pretty tiny and thin if you compare them to an injection.

I was fine with them tbh and he also put a small electric current through them between needles which felt a bit funny. Anyway, after this treatment (which was only my swollen leg and my foot), not only did I feel a nice tingly sensation and a 'release' of swelling, I felt pretty... good?

Over the next few days the swelling went away big time.

I didn't have any further treatments since then until literally this week (so several years later).

This time it wasn't for a swollen knee, it was just essentially for well being. I've been pretty run down/ stressed at work recently so saw a local acupuncturist who asked me tons of questions and made lots of notes. I had my 1st treatment last night, felt really good.

Anyone else had treatment? You know what, I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if it was say 50% placebo affect and 50% the treatment itself that makes you feel good. Apparently certain people are highly receptive to treatment compared to others. I also wouldn't be surprised if I get a load of replies telling me it's a load of spiritual bs and it's a con.

There HAS to be something in it though? Here in the UK it can be treated (for physical symptoms) on our national health service. Its been used in the far east for thousands of years.

My wife is Taiwanese (I'm American, and as skeptical as the next guy) and she's all about this type of stuff (of course)
I've done the acupuncture a few times as well as other Chinese Voodoo (joking here) treatments and the stuff can be really powerful. If you feel like it's helping, I'd continue to go. One thing about this type of Eastern medicine is you need to go regularly and continue the treatments. It's different from Western medicine where you take some pills and you're done. The benefits are more subtle and more about long term health, balance, unblocking energy/chi/blood, ect.

Unfortunately the evidence doesn't back up any of the effects you think you experienced/they claim you experienced from the actual acupuncture. The fact that it's on the NHS is a complete joke and being fought against. Just because it's been used for XXXX years doesn't mean it works (I could give you a ton of examples, alchemy for insistence).

They make a compelling case though through their various falsehoods and logical fallacies, something essential to do if no legitimate science backs up your claims (claims which would be super easy to verify).

To quote Tim Minchin "Do you know what they call "alternative medicine" that's been proved to work?
Medicine."

edit: Like you said could be placebo/the swelling was going to go away like that anyways etc. If you were unaware of the situation you could get a monkey to randomly place sewing pins into you and it would almost certainly have the same effect.

stick with trigger point therapy/myofacial relesse (active release therapy, graston technique, gua sha etc.) imo.

I can't say if acupuncture works or doesn't work as a medical procedure but I have experienced it and it does do "something".

A couple of years ago I was trying everything to cure acute sciatica, highly sceptical I was convinced to try acupuncture. The first three or four needles were put around my wrists and ankles, maybe one was in my side I can't recall exactly. What I do recall was an extreme fit of giggles once the girl left me, before the needles went in I had a 90/10 split of "this is bs"/"slightly apprehensive", after they were in a minute I was trying to stop myself from bursting out laughing. I thought at the time it may have been my reaction to the ridiculousness of allowing 7-8 sharp objects to be inserted into healthy tissue, but there was something physical in my reaction.

The second and final session was less amusing.
The same ankle/needle spots were pinned then I was told to expect a needle closer to the source of the pain.
At this point I was very relaxed, any apprehension about the needles had passed by now. Then I felt the weirdest sense of being totally incapacitated, I didn't know wtf was going on but something wasn't right. It was definite painful but not overly painful, what was weird was that I felt the pain "all over". The therapist was swift to remove the needle and in all it didn't last more than 3-4 seconds but it was enough for me to go from relaxed to cold sweat instantly.

I was having pain in my elbows and wrists and had been having adjustments at the chiropractor for back pains. He mentioned acupuncture and I thought I'd give a try since I am able to do it for free. It did relieve a lot of the pain.

Unfortunately the evidence doesn't back up any of the effects you think you experienced/they claim you experienced from the actual acupuncture.

To quote Tim Minchin "Do you know what they call "alternative medicine" that's been proved to work?
Medicine."

sensation of pain is subjective. placebo effect isn't lack of evidence, it's evidence of a different type of effect. and there's plenty of placebo going on with established medicine as well.

if the cost of going to acupuncture is low and benefits high in relation to alternatives, i don't see a problem with it.

food for thought:
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/12/ff_causation/all/1 (skip to part about "Back pain")
http://www.radiolab.org/2007/may/17/

if the cost of going to acupuncture is low and benefits high in relation to alternatives, i don't see a problem with it.

Agreed placebo isn't no evidence, it's been shown as effective as sticking toothpicks in random parts of your body (iirc pinching had a similar effect) and was reported to cost the UK govt 1.4bil in 2009 (only did some quick googling that figure may be way off).

edit: I can see your point though, if we can cost effectively trick people into believing we're treating their problem and it works whether through placebo or it was mainly a psychological problem then I suppose that's good.

edit: I can see your point though, if we can cost effectively trick people into believing we're treating their problem and it works whether through placebo or it was mainly a psychological problem then I suppose that's good.

it's better than putting people's lives at risk with anesthesia and the scalpel, not to mention exorbitant medical bills (in the US anyway), when the real solution was bed rest.

i think it's kind of the same thing with sports psychology. yeah sure, the optimal solution is just nut up and take it and play through. but if we can't do that, we have to "trick" our brains in some way to get it to perform in the meantime.

two points:

acupuncture = placebo

placebo = usually positive

How many cynics ITT have tried it though?

How many cynics ITT have tried it though?

I'm a cynic and I have tried it. There is actually some reputable published clinical evidence that "minor nerve damage through needle insertion and manipulation in accuputcture" can have pain-killing effect over and above a placebo effect. I'm playing right now so can't look up the study. istr it was in the Lancet.

Edit: I think this is the same thing Mitch is talking about - the control was using needles but not in "proper" accupuncture points. If I remember correctly the real accupuncture was not shown to be better than the random insertion of needles.

For those of you not aware that acupuncture actually works better than placebo:

E.A.Ghoname, W.F.Craig, P.F.White, H.E.Ahmed, M.A.Hamza, N.M.Gajraj, A.S. Vakharia, C.E.Noe: "The Effect of Stimulus Frequency on the Analgesic Response to Percutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation in Patients with Chronic Low Back Pain", Anaest.Analg.1999/88.841-6

B.Wang, J.Tang, P.F.White, R.Naruse, A.Sloninsky, R.Kariger, J.Gold, R.H. Wender: "Effect of the Intensity of Transcutaneous Acupoint Electrical Stimulation on the Postoperative Analgesic Requirement", Anaest.Analg.1999;88:841-6

M.R.Hoda, W.Lechner, K. Grimm, F.X.Stöger, J.C.Széles: "Pre- and Postoperative Pain Management in a Surgery Unit: Preliminary Results of Using Miniaturized Ear Electroacupuncture and Perspectives for Future Clinical Investigations" Abstract, Acta Chirurgia Austriaca, Vol. 32, Supplement 162, 2000

i believe nerve damage works in this way:

if your leg hurts a little but i smash your head hard, you will forget about the leg pain

i believe nerve damage works in this way:

if your leg hurts a little but i smash your head hard, you will forget about the leg pain

You don't believe in science ?