Off Topic Poker Forums

[quote]They're an idea, not a representation of one.[/quote]

Deets, you lost me on this.

I can represent the plot in words, I can represent the sounds with notes on a piece of paper, and I can represent the story (before there were books there were oral histories (stories) ) with letters strung into sentences, paragraphs and maybe even chapters.

These all seem very similar to me, but I am old, and stuck in my ways.

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If you wrote the plot out on a piece of paper you could copyright that but you couldn't copyright the idea of the plot itself.

If someone else made a film that amounted to a character reading out your plot it would breach your copyright. If they acted out a story based on your plot, it wouldn't.

To protect an idea you need to rely on things like trade marks (you can trade mark a name or title, you can't copyright them. You can copyright the physical representation of a logo, though, as well as trade mark it); patents, design rights and, in some territories, unfair competition law such as parasitisme in France.

All these rights have done a good job at promoting invention without handcuffing creativity if you ask me. It's an incredibly difficult line.

All these rights have done a good job at promoting invention without handcuffing creativity if you ask me. It's an incredibly difficult line.

And the difficulty itself lends itself to unfairness. As in the George Harrison case. If two people could come up with the exact same tune without help from each other (I think we can agree that Harrison was a capable tunesmith with no profit motive) why should only one be granted the earning potential?

I realize that 'proving' stuff like this is very difficult, so we take the easy way, and say 'first up wins', but what about the Amen Break that Nawhead linked to (y'all really should listen to the youtube, it was very interesting ) A totally different company now "owns" the rights even though they stole it from the originators.

And for those who think this plays out somewhat fairly, there are many cases where the need to 'defend your trademark' winds up with the little guy getting hammered.

oh, almost forgot.......... we have not even started with photography. Now THAT's a can of worms

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Have been thinking about it even more.

Improva.......... if you had just had the foresight to put on your website that you don't email the book until you speak to the purchasers via skype, we would not be in this mess.

You sir, need to improve your customer experience !!!

That is the answer to copyright laws.

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For anyone interested in the George Harrison story, here is the youtube side-by-side.
My Sweet Lord vs. He's So Fine

The judge awarded the plaintiff (originally 1.6mill). The judge said the two songs were nearly identical regardless of minor differences the defense was claiming. Later in court, Harrison confessed to knowing the original song. He claimed, "Subconcious Copying".
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......Improva, I have not agreed with very much of your philosophy regarding Capitalism vs Socialism. BUT I am on your side on this one -- because I believe that creative/intelligent people should benefit from their creations -- AT LEAST for a substantial time-period before the rats are permitted to steal. There absolutely is an incentive to sit down and do what you did ($$$), and the individuals/companies should be allowed to CAPITALIZE on their works with a protected market (for at least a time period).
......As to your altruistic response of giving free training to those in need, I just think that is very good marketing. You said yourself, that they might come back and pay for training. Nothing wrong with that. In fact that is a little of what the book FREE is about. (still it is capitalism and profit).


It is a bit sickening to read a part of a community philosophying about the correctness of blatant stealing from another member. Sad IMO. The true long-run is that the laws have not yet caught up with the Wild West of the Internet (history). The world economy will never succeed with China philosophies that it is okay to steal another's market/brand. Everyone knows it.
......BTW, I worked in Beijing for a bit. Wow. Everything is copied. Northface. Polo Shirts. etc Everything. Incredible. Yeah, I bought a bunch of knocked-off stuff at fractions of the real price -- because I could. I admit it.

I admit that I am a pirating fool of different things electronic, but there is no way I would ever go on a forum and spit in some guy's face about it. It is stealing. Everyone knows it. Those who don't, definitely are not Improva's friend.

EDIT: OK. Now, can I get some of your altruistic FREE coaching Improva? Just kidding. At this moment, I really do not have time.

I PM'd Improva a while back asking if it'd be possible to get a discount on an old edition of the book but didn't get a response. Now I know I should have nicked it first!

I got a lot of emails and PMs and I often forget to answer. I'm a little distracted at times. Anyway I have answered your PM.

Cheers Oliver, sorry if my post came across as grouchy, it was 3 in the morning when I wrote it and all the intellectual property talk was reminding me of work on a Friday night.

@The people justifying piracy: Just because it is easy to make a copy does not make it easier to create the original work.

Have been thinking about it even more.

Improva.......... if you had just had the foresight to put on your website that you don't email the book until you speak to the purchasers via skype, we would not be in this mess.

You sir, need to improve your customer experience !!!

That is the answer to copyright laws.

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They do get an email:

Dear [firstname],

You have successfully registered as one of our [memberlevel] members.

Please keep this information safe as it contains your username.

Your Membership Info:
U: [username]

Please contact add me on skype: oliver-improva

Then we can talk a little about your game and upgrade your account so you get full access.

The world economy will never succeed with China philosophies that it is okay to steal another's market/brand. Everyone knows it.

Sneakers,

If you even had a clue it would be nice. You really think the United States can take the moral high ground here? Weren't they the member of the WTO that ignored the World court ruling vs Antigua?

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2007/3/wto-issues-ruling-against-us.htm

The United States looks out for itself (and I am a US citizen), PERIOD !!!!

If the world wanted to stop knock offs they could. For many reasons, EVERY GOVERNMENT looks the other way, at times.

It is a bit sickening to read a part of a community philosophying about the correctness of blatant stealing from another member. Sad IMO.

yes-- very sad when members can not have a discussion without worrying about others' health issues. "sickening" to see an important discussion about cutting edge technology and how it is, and gets affected by legal systems set up before this 'science fiction' stuff even got invented.

You want to know what is sick? How bout the actors, producers, etc who had contracts giving them royalties on future sales, but DVDs, and CDs, and DVRs, and VCRs, and streaming video had not even been invented yet. Want to guess how much they are getting? You standing in picket lines with them? Or do you just buy/download the DVD/CD and don't worry about the artists that thought they were getting compensated for future revenue off of their hard work?

I wish all the 'holier than thous' could really see how their purchases related to the real world of compensation for those they think "should" be getting their true value.

Sneakers, you ever in your life got a copy of something you did not pay for? Download something you should not have? Purchase a bootleg copy of something? And if not, any of your friends, relatives, anyone you know?

You turning them in? Yourself?

Well, we all the know the answer to these questions don't we? I would go on, but I am about to get sick....

The moral high ground has little room left nowadays, and its not because there are so many there already.

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They do get an email:

Dear [firstname],

You have successfully registered as one of our [memberlevel] members.

Please keep this information safe as it contains your username.

Your Membership Info:
U: [username]

Please contact add me on skype: oliver-improva

Then we can talk a little about your game and upgrade your account so you get full access.

Hello, yesterday i just purchased the Poker Puzzle 2nd edition and unlike other poker ebooks and videos there WAS NOT and immediate email sent with the links. My checking account has been charged over $500 and I have nothing! Are you there Oliver? I am 95% sure this is not a mailed item, i have sent a couple emails can you please reply

Well, maybe you should have sent it out sooner? Or added that the book would NOT be mailed until you spoke to him? Because this all started because a customer felt compelled to post

just sayin.....

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which:

If you reread sneakers post you will see that he was neither taking the moral high ground nor playing holier than thou. He was simply expressing his opinion that intellectual property should be protected. I don't think that anyone in this thread has pretended to have squeeky clean hands, only that they feel that this discussion in this particular thread is a slap in the face to Improva.

As for someone not getting an immediate response from Improva...who cares? If he was out to rip anyone off that would be one thing but as things stand that delayed response is a pretty flimsy rack to hang your hat on.

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As for someone not getting an immediate response from Improva...who cares? If he was out to rip anyone off that would be one thing but as things stand that delayed response is a pretty flimsy rack to hang your hat on.

I was teasing Improva about how a perceived lack of customer service resulted in all this getting started. He showed the email that he sends out, and i was again teasing him about the fact that it basically failed to put this particular customer at ease.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpajoF4Uyew&feature=related

@The people justifying piracy: Just because it is easy to make a copy does not make it easier to create the original work.

argument is only valid if we tried to justify piracy with the amount of creativity involved for copied works.

even with your opinion of "us people," much respect improva.

The true long-run is that the laws have not yet caught up with the Wild West of the Internet (history). The world economy will never succeed with China philosophies that it is okay to steal another's market/brand. Everyone knows it.

the subtlety of differentiating profiting on trademarks for commercial use vs merely consuming and spreading creative works for personal use and societal benefit is lost on the uncritical observer (and followers of Pope Copyright), as usual.

argument is only valid if we tried to justify piracy with the amount of creativity involved for copied works.

That has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. The fact that it is trivial to make a copy is irrelevant for the debate because it has no or little impact on the effort required to create the original work. Copyright is all about protecting the original investment.

If I could create a new book every month I would not care.. but that is just not possible. You are making the mistake of assuming that (Digital content = Digital content). Not all business models work equally well.

What I'm saying is... when you create something where there is a large personal investment copyright is reasonable and should be respected.