Off Topic Poker Forums

not going to read everything, but

What I meant was that "pay" in your example would be pretty much comparable to "not pay enough for" in mine. In other words, the pay should measure up to what the 'owner' feels its worth is, not some outside entity's sense of it.

So in a store, you see a nice jacket. The jacket is super awesome. You would look amazing in it. Now you look at the price, and it's way to expensive for your taste. You probably decide to let it hanging instead of stealing it?

So, what's the real difference when it is digital?

I don't think there is.

You can't just justify downloading something because you think it's to expensive. But maybe that's not what you meant.

http://youtu.be/qcOdNc_seyM

What I'm saying is... when you create something where there is a large personal investment copyright is reasonable and should be respected.

i'm going to assume this thought continues logically as, "copyright is reasonable and should be respected [or else the creators will starve and creativity will die]."

and again, this argument is as fallacious as it is popular.

this is what they said when the printing press was invented, when tape recorders came out, when people "stole" movies with VCR's, CD recorders, DVR's. with every new technological innovation, the self-appointed defenders of human creativity have been fighting tooth and nail against all of them. and yet, oddly enough, the creative industry keeps getting bigger and creativity just refuses to die.

people who need copyrights to "protect" them usually couldn't sell most of their works in a bargain bin anyway. and those who are the best creators find they only benefit as more people are exposed to their work, not less. it's not hard to imagine; it's quite easy if you do.

The creative industry is getting bigger? Interesting.

Idk. All I know is that taking something that isn't mine is wrong

It becomes less grey to me when you look at it as "Did I pay for this? Oh, I didn't? Then I either need to pay for it or give it back."

because simplifying all complex issues into a question that can be answered with a simple yes/no is the best way to think obviously.

"Don't believe in God? Well, let me ask you a simple question, son, do heathens go to hell? It's a simple question, son, don't make it more complicated and act all uppity with me. Now go along and be a good boy now."

Regarding the first, it seems you are saying if I have two copies of the same book on my desk it can't be stealing to take one because I haven't lost anything. As the one who loses a book, I would disagree.

Borrowing a book from a friend means the friend can't have the book, and/or that you have to return it.

no, if you had 2 copies on your desk, then i'd read one copy and memorize it and create a 3rd book of my own.

and i'd be a pretty douchey friend if i didn't give my friend's book back. and i do give my friend his book back since, again, i only copy it.

...then i give my other friend a copy, and we all read the books and get all excited. then we tell a bunch more friends about this cool book and we make copies for them. then the movie comes out and we all go see it and have this amazing time (you really should've been there!). then we download it (obviously) when it comes out on DVD. one of my friends loves this book so much he even buys the soundtrack to the movie and clothes inspired by the movie. then the 2nd book comes out and my friend buys the collector's set of all the books cause he loves these books so much. i dunno, i'm kind of over this book, but whatever (and who buys books they've already read? i know, crazy right?). then the 2nd movie comes out and all my friends go see it, but i'm reading a new book right now so i don't go. this new book is so cool i give it to another friend...

You need to spend some time in the real world Nawhead think you're going a bit whacky on us...

because simplifying all complex issues into a question that can be answered with a simple yes/no is the best way to think obviously.

"Don't believe in God? Well, let me ask you a simple question, son, do heathens go to hell? It's a simple question, son, don't make it more complicated and act all uppity with me. Now go along and be a good boy now."

Anger? Confusion? That feeling you have is called cognitive dissonance.



I know I said I was done, but I couldn't resist. I'll try to respond to you which later.

You need to spend some time in the real world Nawhead think you're going a bit whacky on us...

Not to get into this argument and take sides, but Nawhead's actually making some good points imo. Kind of similar to this: http://leisureblogs.chicagotribune.com/turn_it_up/2008/10/radioheads-in-r.html

I simply don't understand how anyone, regardless of the security measures, ability to enforce said measures, medium, etc., can think it is ok to take something they didn't pay for and actually try to justify it with a myriad of excuses. To those in that camp, where is your sense of right and wrong? Who the F cares about the logistics of it all? It is wrong to take something that someone is selling if you didn't pay for it. It's as simple as that. Nothing else matters. The fact that the seller should continue to innovate because people like you are forcing them to do so does not make it right that you take their stuff.

I'm done now. Clearly those who think they can take what is not theirs are not going to change their minds because it would be far too inconvenient. I mean, at the end of the day, why not sacrifice your integrity for an episode of Breaking Bad?

didnt you say that you have downloaded a bunch before when you were in college ?

didnt you say that you have downloaded a bunch before when you were in college ?

Yes.

Regarding right and wrong, a lot of things that are -EV to others for the benefit of yourself can be considered wrong, or at least a detriment to society. This can be extended to things that people do everyday like drinking, but also how they spend their money. I could say, "the fact you enjoy drinking is no justification for the harmful effects it has on society."

There are degrees of wrong. It's not particularly useful to think of things in binary terms as wrong and not wrong, or otherwise you can end up hating the whole of humanity.

In the end, the system works off incentives. Monetary incentives, quality of life incentives, social incentives, sexual incentives, legal incentives, and many more. Of course, this system can be flawed as people are not perfectly rational, or anywhere near.

The incentives for piracy give people a good damn reason to do it. I'm not saying it's not "wrong", but I think there are a lot of things that people do may be equally wrong and require no justification for.

Is piracy worse for society than those things? I wouldn't like to speculate about something so complex, but I'm just saying the fact that it is a detriment doesn't mean much in itself.

For any of you out there still listening, you really should check out zach's link. And don't just read the main area, the comments part is also illustrative of how outside the box thinking can help in many ways.

I like guys like nawhead that can actually get me to think about stuff I usually just pass by without a second thought. So, for that alone, "Thanks Naw!"

It seems ironic that this community - which in some ways is dedicated to taking a good hard look at each situation (albeit poker related) and really evaluating the different factors involved (does +EV ring a bell?) -- seems to be so stuck in any one particular mindset. I would have guessed that a younger demographic audience would have been much more receptive to at least discussing the issue.

my bad

which

Anger? Confusion? That feeling you have is called cognitive dissonance.



I know I said I was done, but I couldn't resist. I'll try to respond to you which later.

this was actually pretty clever TSB --

which

Is he now? The issue at hand was very simple. Improva holds copyright over his intellectual property and has not given anyone that got involved in the argument permission to create an electronic copy. I would therefore assume that if you use your brain you can come to the simple conclusion that what you're doing is wrong. If not, no worries, Tecmo has put out a number of posts explaining exactly what the issue is. Nawhead just goes on and on and on trying to justify something that can't be justified. If it can, I'm sure that all the major torrent sites would be very interested in his pov. Even though he's quite clever with his posts (and somewhat entertaining) - none of his arguments would hold up if it came to a legal dispute.

http://youtu.be/qcOdNc_seyM

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/extras/articles/jay-lenos-3d-printer-replaces-rusty-old-parts-1/

Anger? Confusion? That feeling you have is called cognitive dissonance.

Yea, that was my point.

Nawhead just goes on and on and on trying to justify something that can't be justified. If it can, I'm sure that all the major torrent sites would be very interested in his pov. Even though he's quite clever with his posts (and somewhat entertaining) - none of his arguments would hold up if it came to a legal dispute.

and legality is the arbiter of all morality. and thank you for the compliments. and you're right, i am a bit whacky today, late night.

Is piracy worse for society than those things? I wouldn't like to speculate about something so complex, but I'm just saying the fact that it is a detriment doesn't mean much in itself.

lucid, objective, an almost artistic subtlety of thought. too intelligent. much too intelligent.

I mean, at the end of the day, why not sacrifice your integrity for an episode of Breaking Bad?

If it's season 4 you are talking about... you best well believe it is worth sacrificing your integrity

If it's season 4 you are talking about... you best well believe it is worth sacrificing your integrity

Haha, couldn't agree more.

something that just came to mind that it might be a generation issue.
The youngers, 18-21 years old, probably grew up with the internet in a way 28+ can't really relate to.

We 'old guys' *compared to most in the internet poker society* actually had to buy our cds in the music sture. We even had to wait for new music to arrive!
maybe that brings us to an understanding about value in a different way then those who where able to download whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted.

We 'old guys' *compared to most in the internet poker society* actually had to buy our cassette tapes in the music sture. We even had to wait for new music to arrive!

FYP

We 'old guys' *compared to most in the internet poker society* actually had to buy our 8-Track tapes and Albums in the music sture. We even had to wait for new music to arrive!

FYP

FYP2

Sneakers, Techno, and I have agreed on something. Continuing this thread is only pushing us closer to the apocalypse IMO.

If it's season 4 you are talking about... you best well believe it is worth sacrificing your integrity

Bad example on my part