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so here's the thing, i'm in my early 30's and healthy (haven't been injured/sick that required hospital care ever, haven't had a cold/flu in years, exercise regularly, etc.). but i just qualified for a health insurance plan through work, and i'm debating whether i should buy it. it'll cost me $100 a month. that's a lot for me.

however, i was listening to Peter Schiff the other day, and he said for young, healthy people, with this new Obamacare coming out, it's better not to get health insurance, pay the fines ($100-600 a year or something), then just get health insurance if we get sick since the insurance companies can't deny pre-existing conditions anymore.

thoughts?

so here's the thing, i'm in my early 30's and healthy (haven't been injured/sick that required hospital care ever, haven't had a cold/flu in years, exercise regularly, etc.). but i just qualified for a health insurance plan through work, and i'm debating whether i should buy it. it'll cost me $100 a month. that's a lot for me.

however, i was listening to Peter Schiff the other day, and he said for young, healthy people, with this new Obamacare coming out, it's better not to get health insurance, pay the fines ($100-600 a year or something), then just get health insurance if we get sick since the insurance companies can't deny pre-existing conditions anymore.

thoughts?

Wouldn't you have to wait for your enrollment period to come back around? I don't know about your company, but mine only offers health insurance/changes to a plan once a year or for a major life change (i.e marriage, birth of a child). I wouldn't be able to just sign up if I were to get sick and need hospital attention.

I don't think it's been fully rolled out... BUT, the consensus is that this is very game-able. The reasons are: 1. you cannot be denied coverage regardless 2. your price can not vary (everyone will pay the same amount regardless of health or risk factors) 3. the penalty (tax to the govt') will be lower than the premium

I currently pay for my own insurance (mid 30s), and each year it's gone up substantially (percentage wise) even though I've gone twice to the doctor in about 4 years. In other words, I'm paying for someone else's use. (but that's really the entire system that's been built)... I will continue to pay monthly, partially because my wife insists that I have coverage (I didn't before we were married) and partially because this bill hasn't kicked in all the way yet.

At $100 per, or 1200 a year, it might be worth it for you. The time to game the system will be once everything kicks into place... and you won't be the only one to game the system. I plan on doing the same because I absolutely will not tolerate going broke while healthy (then what do I do if I actually need money for something?)

There is speculation that the doctors will even be in on this - helping customers get insurance just prior to treatment, etc.

What a mess.

Wouldn't you have to wait for your enrollment period to come back around? I don't know about your company, but mine only offers health insurance/changes to a plan once a year or for a major life change (i.e marriage, birth of a child). I wouldn't be able to just sign up if I were to get sick and need hospital attention.

that's true, i would have to go get insurance on my own if that time comes. but with Obamacare, the costs should come down so that's not such a big deal anymore, i hope?

At $100 per, or 1200 a year, it might be worth it for you. The time to game the system will be once everything kicks into place... and you won't be the only one to game the system. I plan on doing the same because I absolutely will not tolerate going broke while healthy (then what do I do if I actually need money for something?)

There is speculation that the doctors will even be in on this - helping customers get insurance just prior to treatment, etc.

What a mess.

yup, i agree this is bad and will probably crush the economy more. i have an exit plan, but first i need cash.

still.... Romney might take office and repeal the whole thing. you're right, maybe i'm being too hasty.

but with Obamacare, the costs should come down so that's not such a big deal anymore, i hope?

The cost will go UP, unequivocally. I can't imagine how costs would go down. While people will be able to get "insurance" to cover themselves the day care is needed, the cost of that insurance will be (who knows how high it will get).. maybe 5x or 10x what it is now. How quickly those costs go up by that much no one knows, it's like trying to predict your bankroll... and speaking of that, health insurance is really only bankroll protection, and it's not cheap even at 1200 a year.

To expand upon my comment above, suppose a large percentage "game the system" while many employers do the same (pay the tax instead of offering insurance)... now the optimal line to take is to just wait until you need insurance and then get it that day. When a large percentage do this, who are the ones with insurance and who are the ones without? Simple, sick people have it, healthy do not. Because the insurer will have to provide care for a disproportionate number of customers, the price will go up... and of course, the insurer has to make money for themselves too.. so the price will go up by at least cost of care + profit with a lot less healthy people (like us.. paying each month for nothing) to defray the expense.

I don't imagine this thing will carry on too many months without all hell breaking loose (riots, etc)

The cost will go UP, unequivocally. I can't imagine how costs would go down. While people will be able to get "insurance" to cover themselves the day care is needed, the cost of that insurance will be (who knows how high it will get).. maybe 5x or 10x what it is now.

i meant considering the govt will subsidize the cost. so the higher it goes, the govt will subsidize it more which is going to crush the US in more debt which will lead to more taxes.

I don't imagine this thing will carry on too many months without all hell breaking loose (riots, etc)

when taxes start going up like crazy and/or the govt prints more money to pay for it triggering that hyperinflation everybody says can never happen again (because history never, ever repeats itself rollseyes), that seems quite likely.

How exactly do you buy insurance 'the day you get sick'? I've never understood how that works.

If I fall and break my hip, I'm not exactly calling an insurance agent while the ambulance is en route. Or if I get hit by a car, does the ambulance just wait until I've called and had a new insurance plan set up? Will they drop me off at the emergency room doors?

Those may be extreme situations, but I'm genuinely curious. How would this work?

It doesn't work right now. Most people in the USA get their insurance through their employer. There's speculation that this trend may recede and that employers will progressively move their work force onto a "buy it yourself" philosophy. I think this most likely WILL happen, but think it could take years to happen (in which case, other things will be the big thing to worry about)... but if it happened quickly (quicker than I think), more and more people will do such as I do... contact the insurance company directly and buy insurance as an individual.

That's how.

You call up Cigna, or Anthem or what have you and say "I'd like to get insurance... X deductable, etc etc" they give you a quote, you agree, you're on their roll. Right now, they have an approval process where they check your medical history, look at your letter of good health from a prior insurer, etc etc (these letters BTW don't enter the picture when you're group insured.. ie, through an employer)... well, when they literally cannot refuse you for any reason, then this approval process has to be effectively instant (what's there to "approve" when you cannot be denied?)...

so, oh shit, broke leg... quick, call Anthem "yes, I'd like insurance. Sure, sign me up, send me the bill... and give me my insurance number right now, on the way to the doctor... thanks!" done and done.

i understand it as getting sick not getting hurt. the things that bankrupt people are not a broken leg. you may have a 5k hospital bill and be walking on crutches, but with savings (which should be more since you're not spending money on insurance every year) and a job, you can pay that off. and there are also things like AFLAC accident insurance which some employers offer which covers small medical bills and is much cheaper than a full health plan (i can get it for $5/wk).

but for major accidents and sicknesses where you're sitting in a hospital bed for weeks or getting ongoing treatment--things where the costs spiral out of control--then there's time to buy a policy.

You call up Cigna, or Anthem or what have you and say "I'd like to get insurance... X deductable, etc etc" they give you a quote, you agree, you're on their roll. Right now, they have an approval process where they check your medical history, look at your letter of good health from a prior insurer, etc etc (these letters BTW don't enter the picture when you're group insured.. ie, through an employer)... well, when they literally cannot refuse you for any reason, then this approval process has to be effectively instant (what's there to "approve" when you cannot be denied?)...

so, oh shit, broke leg... quick, call Anthem "yes, I'd like insurance. Sure, sign me up, send me the bill... and give me my insurance number right now, on the way to the doctor... thanks!" done and done.

Ok, so would it be legal for an insurance company to have a 3-day wait period from when you sign up to when your coverage kicks in? I'm not an expert in this area by any means. Seems like there are easy ways to prevent 'gaming the system' in the way described. I'm sure something that simple wouldn't solve all of the possible situations, of course.

A short waiting period wouldn't be the same as 'denying' you coverage or 'approving' your coverage. I guess that's more of a distinction so people can't play the "nuh uh, it's technically illegal so you can't do that'.

Caveat: I'm just thinking of ways to make the system effective and efficient, I'm not saying whether I personally agree with it or not or if I think it's a good (effective, moral, whatever) system or not.

If it turns out like NHS in England, get insurance or just pay for private care if you can afford it (like physical therapy)! (I haven't followed Obamacare so don't know how it will compare.

I'd like to see spending on NHS rise like in other Euro countries which show better results for the higher spending, but never going to happen with our politicians and middle England in charge. They won't even do anything about the housign crisis because of middle England property owners.

Ok, so would it be legal for an insurance company to have a 3-day wait period from when you sign up to when your coverage kicks in? I'm not an expert in this area by any means.

i really don't see why this is a problem unless you literally have 3 days to live.

but then if you're very worried about getting in a bad car wreck sometime in your lifetime, and it keeps you up at night, you're probably going to get insurance anyway. for me, it's a statistically insignificant worry. yes it's a worry. getting blown up by a terrorist attack while flying on a plane is a worry. a meteor hitting the earth is a worry too. but am i going to insure myself for it? no. paying too much for statistically unlikely events is just a bad decision (it's the same logic as chasing 2 outers every time since villain won't expect it and we'll get paid big when we hit, but the emotion is stronger and feels like the right thing to do since it's driven by fear instead of greed.). at some point, i made peace with the fact that sometimes bad shit will happen in life, and i can't cover all the bases.

You raise a good point Luke. I personally do not know. I haven't read the bill (2,000 pages + long). I know a guy that did read the bill and he swears gaming is possible and inevitable... I cannot vouch though, only reporting on what I've heard.

AFLAC accident insurance... I should do that. You have no idea how tilting as fuck it is to pay a few thousand EVERY year knowing that you could just sock that away and have a real cushion if you need it... and yet it's vaporized by the "system".

I'll give you an example (though it's not pertinent to an accident, just an overall example). My uncle did really well for himself, but was absolutely retarded with his money (as most boomers were). He was paying up to 1500 a month for insurance for him and his wife a few years ago until he didn't have the income he needed anymore. He had to cut costs. He cut his insurance. Fast forward two years, he comes down with prostrate cancer, but now has depleted his funds and cannot afford to do anything about it. So a guy that paid a massive amount into the "system" for DECADES finally needs the help, cannot afford the insurance, and is left to his own devices. He's on medical vacation and all of us in the family pitched in for him to get his treatments (which are very affordable in other countries BTW).
What if he had to put away a thousand per year (which would have been a pittance) for three decades for health, and then when the time comes, pay cash? far easier, no? Instead, that money is gone, spent, vaporized and he's left with nothing but a hope in a failing system.

If you look, so much of the system(s) in place in the USA are geared this way. Pay now, pray later... and then you look and see that much of it is insolvent or cannot continue indefinitely and you think we're about to go over a cliff...

sorry for the derail, like I said, it's tilting as anything there is.... it's like being forced to keep your roll on full tilt knowing full well they're insolvent. Not much you can do but cross your fingers

i really don't see why this is a problem unless you literally have 3 days to live.

but then if you're very worried about getting in a bad car wreck, and it keeps you up at night, you're probably going to get insurance anyway. for me, it's a statistically insignificant worry. yes it's a worry. getting blown up by a terrorist attack while flying on a plane is a worry. a meteor hitting the earth is a worry too. but am i going to insure myself for it? no. paying too much for statistically unlikely events is just a bad decision. at some point, i made peace with the fact that sometimes bad shit will happen in life, and i can't cover all the bases.

On a micro level, that's fine. Individuals can take the risk, but we aren't living on islands here. If many people do this, at least some of them are going to get sick/hurt. And they'll get very sick or hurt. A car accident, long term illness, cancer, etc. all cost a lot of money to take care of. *Caveat: I don't know if we can make it all much cheaper; if we can, great, but it's not a point I'm prepared to address at the moment.*

And when you or those people do get hurt (or say you get hurt, break a bone, get pneumonia, get cancer, etc.) I guarantee you're going to go to a hospital and expect treatment. No one 'takes the chance' and doesn't get insurance and then, when they need medical attention says 'oh well, I took a shot and missed, guess I'll just hope I get better on my own'.

I'll give you an example

That's a great example of the existing problems with the foundations of the system the USA is using. Of course, I don't have a solution.

From what I understand, the Affordable Care Act (ACA) has some kind of income-based tier system tied to the insurance mandate which helps subsidize insurance for individuals who don't qualify for Medicare/Medicaid but are still living on a fixed or low income. In theory, requiring everyone to participate should spread the overall cost of the system to a manageable level but we're still dealing with increasing costs of procedures and insurance companies themselves are for-profit business, so who knows?

Regardless - we're living in an interesting and exciting time. It's hard to discuss these things in a grounded, sane way with people. Thanks .

On a micro level, that's fine. Individuals can take the risk, but we aren't living on islands here. If many people do this, at least some of them are going to get sick/hurt. And they'll get very sick or hurt. A car accident, long term illness, cancer, etc. all cost a lot of money to take care of. *Caveat: I don't know if we can make it all much cheaper; if we can, great, but it's not a point I'm prepared to address at the moment.*

And when you or those people do get hurt (or say you get hurt, break a bone, get pneumonia, get cancer, etc.) I guarantee you're going to go to a hospital and expect treatment. No one 'takes the chance' and doesn't get insurance and then, when they need medical attention says 'oh well, I took a shot and missed, guess I'll just hope I get better on my own'.

the thing is, it was guaranteed that i would have bought my company health plan and kept it if it wasn't for Obamacare. but with this loophole of allowing pre-existing conditions, it changes the game. yes, it would be better for the system if everybody paid into it all the time. but there will be other people who game the system so now i feel like a sucker if i don't game it as well. the system will break eventually, and i refuse to throw my money into a black hole while waiting for it to happen (and end up like StueysKid's uncle).

also, do poor people get chemo treatments if they get cancer? i thought hospitals are only obligated to give emergency services?