Live Poker Poker Forums

£2/5 9-handed

UTG (winning tight TAG playing about £2k) limps for 5, UTG+2 limps, MP limps (very successful aggressive pro with a stack of £5k who usually plays 5/10), I make it 35 on the button (£700 stack) with AKcc. All the limpers call.

Flop AJ5 rainbow (1 club). They all check to me, what's your play?

OK as played I checked behind. I know a lot of people will probably hate this. The overriding reason I checked is because I am not rolled to play the 2/5 game at the moment - I was just taking a shot because an extremely big fish was at the table. Also, I don't hate it tbh in any case because a) None of the other players in the hand are bad enough to call with A9 or below b) There aren't any big draws that will call c) It disguises my hand d) The other players in the hand are definitely capable of check-raise bluffing here and my hand can't stand a lot of heat so I don't wanna get bluffed off the best hand. What are your thoughts? If I was playing my normal stakes I'd almost always just bet flop here.

As played, turn is Jc.

Check, check, 85, I call on the button, UTG c/r to 250, call... What do you do here??

As played I called, and the river brings 8c. Check, check, what's your play?

I checked behind. Again I realise this is almost always horrible but I was under rolled for the game. I also strongly feel like neither player would call with a J because my hand looks so obviously like a flush draw. Plus the UTG player who check-raised the turn is really nitty so that line screamed huge strength to me (ie KJ+). Can't see what hand is paying me off on a river shove apart from a lower flush (which I can't see showing up here that often). Also I was worried cos MP is definitely good enough to turn Jx into a bluff on the river here by check-raising (although in retrospect I don't think my stack was deep enough)...

PS It won't be helpful for anyone to say "if you're under rolled you shouldn't be playing in the game" because that ain't true. The fish who lured me into it loses about 5k on average every time he plays which easily makes it worth it. I have made a lot of money from taking shots vs him despite playing sub-optimally because of bankroll factors.

Top pair is beat here. Fold the turn, although I think the flop check is not bad on a little dryer flop, I think with the various gutshots you still need to bet this flop.

Fold to the 85 bet on the turn? Even with club and ace outs?

If you are concerned about bankroll while playing a hand, the correct adjustment will be to pass on marginal bluffing opportunities and to bet your value hands a little bit bigger on the flop. You'll get a bit less value assuming players adjust by having a tighter calling range, but you'll realize your share of the pot equity more often. Of course, you do have to adjust properly on the turn and river to your opponents' tighter calling ranges (if they are adjusting to your bet sizing to begin with).

I also think you are a bit paranoid about being bluff check/raised. Almost all your opponents either will not check/raise bluff often enough (vast majority of players) that you can safely fold to check/raises with a hand like TPTK or will check/raise bluff too often (the players that like to "make moves") and you have to accept the variance associated with their play and not pass up on the EV of the situation. Very few players have anything close to optimal bluffing frequencies and I think it is foolish to assume someone does until you have a lot of evidence for it.

Assuming at least one opponent had Jx and nobody had a boat trying to check/raise, you managed to put in $35 into the pot with a decent equity + playability edge preflop, $0 on the two streets where you had the best hand / most equity, and $250 on the one street where you had the worst equity. How is that going to help your bankroll? Making really -EV plays is not going to keep you alive when you are underrolled. You either should have taken a shot in the game with the intention of playing your A game, or passed on the game even with the big fish in it because you couldn't afford the first option with your bankroll at the time.

Assuming at least one opponent had Jx and nobody had a boat trying to check/raise, you managed to put in $35 into the pot with a decent equity + playability edge preflop, $0 on the two streets where you had the best hand / most equity, and $250 on the one street where you had the worst equity. How is that going to help your bankroll? Making really -EV plays is not going to keep you alive when you are underrolled. You either should have taken a shot in the game with the intention of playing your A game, or passed on the game even with the big fish in it because you couldn't afford the first option with your bankroll at the time.

Right but it's hardly like I had no equity on the turn. Do you think if I'd shoved the river my line is fine then? UTG had KJ and MP also had Jx (they both showed). I'm still not convinced that checking the flop is that bad. Obviously the turn jack is an extremely unlucky card for me because it's the last one in the deck so on the vast majority of turns I'll still have the best hand.

...coupled with the fact that against these players I really can't see a worse hand calling me on the flop

...coupled with the fact that against these players I really can't see a worse hand calling me on the flop

This sounds pretty unrealistic. I think your bankroll concerns are clouding your judgment.

If they won't call the flop, they're good enough that they won't call the turn unless they catch up, so you're reverse free rolling yourself here. This is a fairly simple hand for a reason. Bet the flop and actualize your pot equity. It isn't like you have a monster here.

Checking the river is terrible. When they both check, they both have Jx very often. They would bet with boats to capitalize on value from your perceived range, so it's not likely they have a boat. You'll get at least one call betting smallish for value on the river.

OP i think you are over estimating your skill level and playing under rolled for 2/5. Are you actually a winning player at 1/2? Im not being a dick it is a serious question, your reasons for making x plays seem really odd to me you seem to have a lot of leaks in your thought process but at the same time your taking it seriously and obviously want to learn since your posting here and you threads are very detailed. On the other hand though your taking about 0% advice and disagreeing with pretty much everything everyone tells you.

If they won't call the flop, they're good enough that they won't call the turn unless they catch up, so you're reverse free rolling yourself here.

Not at all. They can value bet a J on a blank turn here (or at least check call) once I've checked behind the flop.

I agree the river play is terrible.

Are you actually a winning player at 1/2?

Yep for £40 an hour over about 80 sessions (average about 8 hours a session).

OP i think you are over estimating your skill level and playing under rolled for 2/5.

No I was quite probably the 8th best player on the table. It's just the 9th best was SO BAD it was still +EV to be in that game. That's why my lines look so weak/scared because I knew I'm not as good as the other players in the hand.

Against 3 opponents you really should be betting this flop. I'm not sure what all these aggressive players are limping in with preflop, but I would have to think Axs might be in their range. Betting the flop should get some value from these hands as well as denying free cards to gutshots and 2 out draws that likely aren't putting money into the pot unless they spike.

As far as getting check raised on the turn a call is probably ok, though I don't think folding is bad here. You're risking 165 more to win 725. Most of your club outs are going to be fine and you do have 2 ace outs.

After completing your flush you really need to be betting your flush when checked to. The only way you're going to be beat is if someone has 55 and decided to get FPS on the river. AA/JJ/AJ raises preflop, J5/J8 really shouldn't be in anyones range, and 88 folds the turn. You beat all the smaller flushes and trips.

As far as bankroll concerns, I'm guessing your usual game is 1/2 or 1/3. How much of a hit would losing your 2/5 buy in be to your usual game bankroll? When I take a shot a higher game I treat it as if the moneys already gone. I understand maybe playing a bit more conservative by maybe passing up on some higher variance plays, but when your overriding reason to not bet TPTK on the flop (a scenario that's going to come up relatively often) is because you are under rolled for the game you're not likely to be profitable in the game.

Agree with all that pretty much, except AJ (as well as 55) can definitely limp UTG and is consistent with his check flop check/raise turn line. Admittedly AJ probably leads the river though.

I think the fundamental reason I misplayed this hand is because I was in the game solely to play against the fish and didn't wanna get involved with anyone else. He was the kind of player who'd go all in for 2k with 72o preflop. Or raise every hand to £50. So I was just there waiting to limp/shove QQ+ basically. That said, I obviously I'm not folding AKs on the button.

Flop) I'm betting flop almost always here given pre-flop action. You are crushing so much of the possible hand ranges here that I think you need to bet. Given the reads on villains, there is almost no way anyone can show up here with JJ, AA or J5. AJ and 55 are pretty much the only hands that are possible in the range of hands that can beat us. Betting gets value from AQ (also unlikely) AT, A9, and even some J's that villain c/c with because it looks like you're just c-betting. My size here is probably $90, but not really pertinent to the hand

Turn) Jc, for me is a scary card for any J's in the hand. HOwever, I think if we took the initiative and bet flop, we'd probably get to see a free card, since all J's who called the flop would probabbly look to c/r, and I would just check behind.

Turn as played) Calling the 85 is obviously fine. The $250 IMHO is a clear cut fold mathematically, since there's significant action and the board has paired. It's 165 to win 725 ~22%, which if you have all of your outs (9 clubs and 2 A's) is also about 22%. Only problem there, is that you definitely have to discount some of those club outs, since some of the time you're going to run into FH's. In this case, two of those clubs would have boated up villains, potentially stacking you (I don't know what you would have done if someone shoved the river).

River) You need to shove here. It's about 1/2 pot. Villains can't plan to c/r you because you're so shallow in relation to the pot. Any amount you bet commits, so you can't say that you're fearing getting x/r.

Agree, thanks. Only query is that considering everyone is saying I should shove the river because a J will call, surely that means I can factor in implied odds so calling the turn c/r is 165 to win >1k (rather than 725) which makes it a call.