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Some live preflop spots

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sweetjazz3

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1999 posts
Joined 02/2007

Let's assume you're playing in a good 1/2 game. None of the other players seems to be particularly skilled and most are loose passive. You've been in the game long enough to have a few basic reads, but you don't really know any overly specific tendencies of any of the players. Everyone has between $200 and $300 in their stack, and you have $300. The table is currently playing 10 handed.

(a) Six players limp in and you have KDiamond QSpade in the SB. Complete or raise? If raise, how much do you raise?

(b) Same scenario, you have AClub 9Club.

(c) Same scenario, you have 7Heart 7Diamond.

(d) Three players limp in and you have QClub JSpade in the CO. Overlimp or raise? If raise, how much?

(e) Same scenario, you have KDiamond 9Diamond.

(f) Same scenario, you have 4Club 4Heart.

(g) UTG limps in and you have ASpade TDiamond UTG+1. Fold, overlimp, or raise? If raise, how much?

(h) Same scenario, you have 2Spade 2Heart.

(i) Same scenario, you have 6Heart 4Heart.

"It depends" is a perfectly acceptable answer, provided you identify what factor(s) your decision depends on. Smile Also, despite appearances, this is really a thread about postflop ...

Posted 10 months ago

theOnlyMoment

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7 posts
Joined 07/2012

a, b, c) I would complete in all those spots. You're have absolutely no fold equity and all that you'll be doing is bloating up the pot preflop. You can easily build the pot up with a pot sized bet on the flop if you hit hard i.e. set, nut flush draw, two pair, straight, etc.

d,e,f) same idea as a,b,c no reason to bloat up the pot when no one's going to fold with a drawing hand. just overlimp and bloat the pot up postflop when you hit hard

g) here I would raise. It's easier to get a fold out of players who haven't put any money in yet (i.e. those who haven't limped. In my experience you'll probably go 3-4 ways with a raise. Generally i follow a 4xbb + 1bb per limper. so i'd raise to $10 in a 1/2 game.

h) overlimp. you can play so fit or fold with pocket pairs and get paid off almost all the time when you hit a set it's like printing money. no need to put more money in preflop before you hit a set.

i) i would personally fold this in UTG+1. gap suited cards are difficult to play in ep/mp in a 10 handed game. even in a fishy game. There's a very high chance of getting raised from a player in late position and it would not be very profitable to call oop. in mp or lp though this is an easy overlimp.

Posted 10 months ago

theOnlyMoment

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7 posts
Joined 07/2012

btw, i'd like to hear from others. Being a student i haven't been able to put in many hours and so my winrate doesn't mean much of 5.8BB/hr or 16.5BB/100. I've simply been applying what I've been learning from DeucePlays. but honestly I can't remember the last time I haven't gotten paid off when I hit a set and fast played it.

Posted 10 months ago

NinaWilliams

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821 posts
Joined 12/2007

A) complete. If you raise and get 1 caller, it's going to start a cascade of callers with a hand that plays poorly in large pots.

b) Complete also. This hand hits fewer flops than KQ but it does make bigger hands. These 2 factors balance out somewhat. Also making a big raise and potentially knocking out other suited hands is not good.

C) complete also. this hand is very hit or miss and you'd much rather take a cheap flop to try to hit your miracle than bloat the pot with a hand that doesnt play well postflop oop.

D) Whether or not I raise and how much depends on stacks. I like a raise here though to secure the button, possibly win without a flop, and to build a pot in position where we can likely win it unimproved postflop

E) Raise for the same reasons.

F) Overlimp, This hand isn't as sensitive to position as the others so you don't mind button being in the pot. Also, you'll have less equity on your bad flops making your cbet and barrel attempts more costly.

G) Fold, this hand sucks. You wouldn't play this hand utg and this spot is worse.

H) Overlimp. see F

I) Fold. See G. Also this hand's multiway prospects are very overrated.

Posted 10 months ago

cucciabot

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38 posts
Joined 01/2011

a. Raise to 10 or 12
b. complete
c. complete
d. raise to 12
e. overlimp or fold
f. small raise, I like 8
g. fold
h. see f
i. fold

Posted 10 months ago

tdt55

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31 posts
Joined 04/2012

a. raise to 18-22. You have a good hand capable of flopping top pair thats likely ahead of the 6 limpers. Its a loose passive game but that doesnt mean no one ever limp folds. U have just as much a chance of hitting the flop hard as anyone else. If in fact u do get madd callers shut it down/play it cautiously. SPR's are likely to be a little low when called but I think KQ in this spot has enough value for a lower SPR hand.

b. Complete. In my experience, its not uncommon for ppl to limp AT, AJ. Additionally I feel that the real value in this hand is the nut flush potential, in which case u'd want many ppl in the pot, especially if they're gonna play passively.

c. Complete. Ur oop postflop and it'll be hard to continue without flopping a set.

d. Raise. 15,16ish. For the same reasons as (a: KQo). QJ is not as good but you are in position this time. You do have to worry about more hands. Its close. Bart Hanson though in his series Poker With Your Pants On really advocates open-raising with QJ, esp in position. For its ability to flop top pair, as well as its barreling equity, overcards can often give you more outs.

e. Overlimp. If you flop TP and get a raise in front of you, play pot control as u may be outkicked. If its checked to you you can probably be more aggressive. If no TP, hope for some diamonds or look for opportunities to play some take-away in position.

f. Overlimp. If no set, shut it down.

g. Fold. I dont think its wise to raise ATo in early position, UTG limper or not.

h. Overlimp. Ur position is different than in (f) but.... I cite theonlymoment's (h).

i. Fold. The threat of a raised pot, ur oop postflop. And as far as suited one gappers go 64 is really low on the totem pole.

@sweetjazz3, love ur threads/posts. Keep em coming.

Posted 10 months ago

sweetjazz3

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1999 posts
Joined 02/2007

a) This is a spot I used to raise, but I now think completing is usually better. If there are a lot of short stacks (50-80 bb), then I don't mind raising with the hope of isolating one or two of the short stacks. The reason for this is that many short stacks will call a wide range preflop and make a commitment decision on the flop, so you have a chance of winning the pot with a small cbet when they miss the flop and give up and can also win their stack when you flop TPGK and they decide they are going to continue with their hand. Basically, short stacks often play terrible and you need to be aware when you have someone who is looking to "double up or go home". The other time I would raise is in a GREAT game where literally every hand is seeing 7 or 8 to the flop and every raise is being called by everybody. In that case, I'd raise to $20 or so with the intention of trying to get all-in on the turn if I flop TPGK. In general, KQo plays poorly in a multiway pot against competent hand ranges, but against random hands that include trash like 64o, K7o, J2s, etc. with an SPR that allows you to get the money in before the river, the situation becomes very profitable. But my default gameplan is to complete.

b) I'd complete here too in general. As other have explained, the dynamics of this hand plays better in a limped pot than in a raised pot, especially since we are out of position.

c) I'd actually strongly consider making a small pot sweetener raise, to about $7. I don't think you'll get many folds and that's not the point. You're giving up a bit of equity, but you bloat the pot so it becomes easy to get stacks in if you do flop your set. If the stacks are deeper, I'd consider raising even more (for the same reasoning).

d) I think this is an "it depends" situation. Is the button sticky (calls lots of raises preflop) or will a raise often buy the button? Will a large 8x-10x raise likely result in a shorthanded pot / taking down the pot, or is it likely to bring about a huge bloated pot? I think overlimping, making a smallish value raise to $10 or making a bigger raise to $18 or so could be right based on table dynamics.

e) Similar reasoning as with d.

f) I'd again make a small pot sweetener raise. We give up a bit less equity because of our position (we may get checked to and have a chance to take a free card on the flop) and we again give ourselves a chance to play for stacks if we floparoo a setamagoo.

g) I think raising generally fares poorly here. I think you can limp here if the game is really good (specifically, very little raising preflop by anyone but you, and people playing straightforward and loose postflop), but folding is probably going to be the best play the majority of the time.

h) I'd still make a pot sweetening raise, though this one is the most likely to backfire because someone 3bets. But in actuality, live players just don't 3bet without premiums, even against transparently small raises. So if someone has TT on the button, if everybody limps in to him, he might raise to $15 or $20 to try to win the pot there with the "best hand". But if you make a pot sweetening raise to $6, that same player will often just call with everybody else. So your super exploitable raise actually creates a much better situation for you when this happens. Of course, sometimes someone behind you wakes up with AA or KK and they reraise big, but that doesn't happen too often.

i) Similar to g, but this is not a very good hand. You should be looking hard for reasons to fold. Only in a super soft game (where I'm limping almost anything suited or connected in late position because the game is that good) would I be looking to get in here.

Posted 10 months ago

euEra

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682 posts
Joined 08/2010

a complete
b complete
c complete
d overlimp
e overlimp
f overlimp
g fold
h limp
i fold

Posted 9 months ago

ken aces

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238 posts
Joined 03/2008

a raise big depending on the flow of the table
b call
c call
d and e are both very close to folds as neither over limping or iso-raising these hands is a great option
f call
g clear fold - UTG is way to early to iso this weak with all the players behind you
h call
i clear fold

Posted 9 months ago

josherer

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27 posts
Joined 08/2012

(a) KQo: Complete (easily dominated hand, not a lot of fold equity, bad position)
(b) A9s: Complete (you want to keep as many players in to hit second-best hands when you hit the nuts)
(c) 77: Complete (same logic as b)

(d) QJ: Raise to 20 (good position, hand flops fine, raise pretty large because you'd be happy to take the dead money there and then or alternatively play heads up in position vs a weak opponent)
(e) K9s: Raise to 20 (same as d)
(f) 44: Overlimp (same logic as b)

(g) ATo: Fold (in reality I probably overlimp but I think this is a leak)
(h) 22: Overlimp (if there's a good chance you won't get raised off it)
(i) 64s: Fold (playing FDs oop post-flop is pretty yucky, especially low ones)

Posted 9 months ago

josherer

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27 posts
Joined 08/2012

h) I'd still make a pot sweetening raise, though this one is the most likely to backfire because someone 3bets. But in actuality, live players just don't 3bet without premiums, even against transparently small raises. So if someone has TT on the button, if everybody limps in to him, he might raise to $15 or $20 to try to win the pot there with the "best hand". But if you make a pot sweetening raise to $6, that same player will often just call with everybody else. So your super exploitable raise actually creates a much better situation for you when this happens. Of course, sometimes someone behind you wakes up with AA or KK and they reraise big, but that doesn't happen too often.



Definitely true about TT. But I think that's heavily outweighed by the fact that you really want to be able to see a flop with this hand if someone else has AA or KK. Making a sweetening raise just means you'll always be blown off the pot in this scenario. But you can limp/call a 12ish raise and then really get paid off by AA/KK when you hit. True you sometimes see a flop more cheaply vs TT but that's not a hand that's anywhere near as likely to stack off to you.

Posted 9 months ago




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