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Playing £1/2 9-handed live.

Hero is on the button with AKo. Stack size around £800. The player to my immediate right has recently sat down, and has said he has lost several 4 or 5k pots in a bigger game tonight and came here to get over his run bad. He has already shown that he's super tilted but knows the game well. He has about £600. He raises to £17 in the cutoff. He's been raising a lot of hands recently.

I flat on the button for the following reasons: a) he's liable to reraise me pretty light and I don't want to inflate the pot too much preflop (eg end up flipping for £1,200!) when I have position on him and can outplay him postflop a lot b) his range is pretty weak so I want to keep his weaker aces in for when I flop TPTK (he's already stacked off once with one pair).

SB folds, then the BB makes it £65. The BB is a winning TAG reg who's been the least active member of the table so far. The cutoff folds, and I decide to call. Do you like this play? Do you prefer a 4bet, and if so why and to how much?

Flop comes 8Q8 two-tone. He leads for £65. What is your play? I decide to call because the flop bet looks so weak - I think he will have a pair lower than queens a fair amount of the time as well as having AK a fair amount of the time as well.

Turn is an off-suit rag and he checks to us. What is your play? I decided to fire 140. He calls.

River is a third 8. He checks, what is your play?

How deep is the BB? I don't think folding preflop is bad by any means, if your read is that this player is a typical live TAG reg, so that his range might be as narrow as QQ+, AK. If you think his range is wider than that, then obviously you will continue in the hand.

Did you have a live read that he was weak on the flop or just based on his bet sizing? If he's good (given that it's live, I know the odds aren't high), I think this is about the right amount to bet with his range. If he as AA/KK/QQ, this is a great flop for his hand and he should be trying to keep you in the pot.

I'm also not a huge fan of floating on flush draw boards because live players love to put you on a missed draw and see a showdown. And if the third flush card comes, you often have to double barrel because they are going to call with any one-card flush draw in his range. And then often your double barrel fails because they had a strong hand like AA that was scared enough by the flush draw to not bet, but not scared enough to fold. In other words, without specific reads live, it's hard to figure out just how far they are going to go with various parts of their range, and it becomes expensive trying to move them off hands. It's bad to float players whose primary weakness is going to showdown too often with weak hands, and that's a leak of many many live players.

So after preflop, flop and turn, what do you think his range is? Live TAGs can be all over the place here. He could have AA here and be irrationally scared of the paired 8s on the board, so not betting (but also never folding). He could have JJ here and he's calling the turn to see if you "really have it" -- planning to fold when you bet the river because then you "really have it." Or he could have JJ here and he's calling the turn because he sees a flush draw out there and he's "putting you on the flush draw" -- intending to call this river card.

I've seen different TAG regs fit each of these different profiles. If you play with a reg long enough, you can usually get a sense of what they are thinking. But from your description of the hand, you don't seem to have enough hands with this particular player to know where he falls into? (Or you wouldn't be posting the hand?) To be honest, if he's an unknown, I would have folded the flop. As played, I'd really try to think back if I have any kind of information or tell to help me here. I'd definitely consider overbet bombing the river if I think he is kind of weak, because you don't sometimes see the weaker players make huge laydowns like AA here. (Nobody ever folds QQ because they are psychologically committed to the hand once the flop comes down.) If my vibe is that he has JJ/TT,/the 1 possible combo of AKs I guess I'd go ahead and fire about $310. But unless I get some physical indication that he is weak and/or considering folding (such as him making a "strong" move when calling the turn), I'm inclined to just give up and lol when he slams QQ on the table and exclaims, "Why didn't you bet?"

Oops I made a sick typo - I meant 88Q three-tone flop. Which I guess makes the flop float a little better? Also I forgot to put his stack is around £400.

Really useful, thanks. A couple more things... Do you ever think there's any merit in a smallish 4-bet pre? Obv his range is pretty narrow here, but I definitely think TT, JJ, QQ, and AK are all in his range and would all be put in a pretty horrible spot when 4-bet oop? Obv if he has AA or KK he's 5-bet shoving, but we can make an easy fold in that spot. Honestly in all my days playing live I never really see ANY kind of players 5-betting with less than KK so even QQ will probably just flat. Then I'd have the initiative and a pretty scary looking range. (I know I originally just flatted the tilt guy's raise, but I had done a similar flat with QQ in the BB vs his SB open which the TAG had seen a few hands previous...).

Also, I agree that 65 is a pretty standard flop c-bet for his range, but in my experience, even the better players live tend to use really exploitable bet sizing. So I'd be really surprised if he had AA or KK if he didn't bet significantly bigger on the flop. Obv 65 isn't inconsistent with QQ but that's combinatorially a lot less likely than TT-JJ/AK.

I ended up giving up on the river and he tabled JJ. I asked if he would call a river bet and seemingly without irony he said, "Yeah, I mean what can you have?".

Hmm, still wonder if a bigger turn bet would have got the job done, or as you say whether I should have just bombed the river. I don't think he'd ever put an 8 in my range on the flop or turn cos IMO it would have to be a pretty fishy call pre and I had a fair amount of respect at the table.

Also, if he is a thinking player, a more credible line to represent Qx would be to check the turn and bet the river, but I think a lot of live players would interpret that as a weak hand like 66 or JT checking the turn and then betting the river as a bluff.

I guess his comment, again if he isn't just a typical awful live TAG, could mean that you wouldn't call preflop with AQo or KQ (maybe not even AQs?), so you really could only have QQ or a double flatted AA/KK (which live players are never giving you credit for).

I like that you used some creativity in this hand, but probably a simpler principle applied here. When a live player has a strong range, don't try to bluff him off the pot, as the risk/reward usually isn't worth it.

I honestly am never shocked live if I were at the table, watched you bet the river big, and then have him call after agonizing for a while. I'd be thinking to myself that you have QQ and he must have KK, then I'd see him table JJ and watch you muck and think to myself, "I still don't know how to hand read live players. I give too much weight to what would be sensible."

Haha too true!

I guess there's something in the argument that it's hard for me to rep a lot. I still think AQ is a big part of my range to call his 3bet pre, though.

Thoughts on a 4bet pre (see my last comment) anyone?

I agree, the best play is to fold the flop, I just felt dirty giving up so easy when I felt a lot of weakness.

Meh, not a fan of small 4bet preflop. It gets called by their whole range (which you're not really ahead of) and gives you less playability postflop. As evidenced by his comments, there's a reasonable chance you stack him anyway on a Kxx flop. Maybe an Axx flop he doesn't stack off, but he probably still puts in a lot. And it's not like you're going to 4bet preflop and then he's going to fold JJ on a 974 flop (or even Q88). Your 4bet is just tying him (and to a lesser extent) yourself to the pot when you don't really have an equity edge.

But you could consider jamming preflop if he only started with $400. However, his range is strong and I think there's a reasonable chance he just shrug calls it off with QQ or JJ. If he had $400 left on the river (so $650ish preflop), I don't think the risk/reward is there to jam preflop, though if CO flatted the 3bet, then I think jamming is viable.

But you could consider jamming preflop if he only started with $400. However, his range is strong and I think there's a reasonable chance he just shrug calls it off with QQ or JJ. If he had $400 left on the river (so $650ish preflop), I don't think the risk/reward is there to jam preflop, though if CO flatted the 3bet, then I think jamming is viable.

This is a 1/2 game, I don't think 4bet jamming 200bb is anything close to ideal with AK here. Live players are rarely ever 3betting light, and almost never squeezing light from the blinds. It's just not happening enough to have anything other than a 4bet range of pure value.

The only thing that's going through my mind when I get 3bet is how widely the villain considers his value range which helps me decide if I'm calling with hands like AK/AQ/JJ.

regarding 4bet and villain's stack:
he's only got 100bb, and 3bet to 32bb, which would already be a big 4bet size in an online 6max game...
so you can't really 4bet to, say, 50bb with the intention of folding.
might as well jam pre, or fold.

I think 4bet squeezing here would be a terrible idea, especially considering you consider him to be a TAG. The fact that he 3bet the tilty guy with JJ hints that he at least has some clue as to what's going on.

I'm not sure that I actually like the flop peel. If we're giving him a tight range, then the bottom end is the same hand that we have (maybe with AQ at the very very bottom, in which case you're looking to hit a 3 outer).

I'm not sure you can use bet sizing in THIS case as a tell. He cbet the same that he 3bet true, but I do that occasionally as well with my big hands because:

1) SPRs are smaller, you don't have to bet bigger to get stacks in by the river. If he's sitting on 100bb, he 3b 30bb pre, and then cbet 30bb, he can easily make a 40bb turn bet without being in a tough spot.

2)Smaller bets are sometimes more enticing, he got you to call with nothing. Would you peel if he bombed for 100?

I think the turn in this case is a pretty bad barrel card. It doesn't change the board at all, and certainly can't hit your perceived range.

I don't think bluffing at this river is a very good idea either. Any pair now has a boat, and most players are never ever folding.

I'm not sure I like the flat of CO's open. I'd rather 3bet to isolate the tilting player. AK obviously fares well against his range and if I think he's going to 4bet light the stacks are deep enough that we have some maneuverability postflop against a range that we're still going to be ahead of.

That's all I really have to add to the discussion. I pretty much agree with what has been written about how the hand played out.

TH: If we 3bet, we make it about $50 total? What is our plan if he 4bets to $125 total? $150? $200?

The thing with being deep live is that even though we start the hand with 300bb effective stacks, his $17 raise more or less turns this game into a traditional 2/5 game or an online 3/6 game in terms of bet sizing. So effective stack depth has effectively shrunk to about 100-120bbs. Given that, I'm not sure whether we can profitably take a flop if we get 4bet (instead of choosing between 5bet jamming and folding). BTW, that doesn't mean 3betting is necessarily wrong, but does limit our postflop playability a lot if we do.

What range do you give BB for squeezing?

I can't say I like the initial preflop flat, I'd 3bet/5bet jam here usually.

As played the river 8 is possibly the worst card in the deck for us to continue bluffing on, I really don't see him folding a boat.

TH: If we 3bet, we make it about $50 total? What is our plan if he 4bets to $125 total? $150? $200?

The thing with being deep live is that even though we start the hand with 300bb effective stacks, his $17 raise more or less turns this game into a traditional 2/5 game or an online 3/6 game in terms of bet sizing. So effective stack depth has effectively shrunk to about 100-120bbs. Given that, I'm not sure whether we can profitably take a flop if we get 4bet (instead of choosing between 5bet jamming and folding). BTW, that doesn't mean 3betting is necessarily wrong, but does limit our postflop playability a lot if we do.

If we 3bet and BB cold 4bets? That's an easy fold almost 100% of the time. You can narrow a live villain's cold 4bet range to basically QQ/KK/AA, and often times not even QQ.

You're right about the big initial raise reducing our effective stacks and how that will impact our maneuverability if we see a flop in a 3bet spot (or if we, for some reason, 3bet then call a 4bet). That said, most live villains aren't thinking like this. They aren't thinking SPR or effective stacks. We need to make sure we don't level ourselves here. A villain isn't raising because 'I'm 200bb deep and want to 3bet because I'm OOP and want to minimize my opponents positional advantage by lowering the SPR'. They're raising because 'I haz good hand!', which depends on how the villain defines 'good hand' but is usually in a range we are really comfortable identifying.

So, all that said, I definitely like a 3bet preflop against the guy who initially raised, that's on tilt, and already deep in the whole. He's our target. I hate back 4-betting BB, he's likely to simply have a strong range and we aren't targeting that.

Yeah, I like the iso 3B pre also, but as played, I probably sigh and fold to the 3B. Maybe BB is also exploiting CO's tilt and is doing his own iso, but I doubt it. That raise is pretty strong -- he'll have to assume that you'll both call any raise but he raises anyway.

65 into 195 is not necessarily a weak bet to the minds of a lot of 1/2 players. If he had bet 100, I'd have no problem folding, since "100" is a big bet to a lot of players, regardless of the size of the pot. So from that perspective, 65 is a decent size into a dry flop.