Live Poker Poker Forums

Keys to Live Poker II: Seat Selection

or track by Email or RSS


sweetjazz3

Avatar for sweetjazz3

1999 posts
Joined 02/2007

There are three ways to select your seat in a live game:
(1) When you are brought to a table with more than one open seat, you can choose where to sit.
(2) When you sit down at a table that is just starting, you can choose *when* and where to sit. Meaning: you can wait to see where some of the other players sit first before choosing your seat.
(3) At any point, you can request a seat change button and change seats with someone who leaves.

In all cases, the principle of where you want to sit is the same: You want the worst fish with the biggest stacks sitting directly to your right. It's really that simple. Having position is a big advantage and that advantage is most beneficial against someone who plays far too many hands and holds on to them far too long postflop. Moreover, the more chips a bad player has, the more chips that are likely to make their way to you.

If there are one or more fish who are really short, I don't care if they are on my left or not. The reason is that position is most important for turn and river play, so if their stacks are shallow enough that you can put them to commitment decisions on the flop or turn, their positional advantage is neutered. So when you are selecting a seat, the most important factor is where the deep stacks are sitting and how good they are.

Here's an example of how valuable position is against a poor player who is deep. The final board reads KHeart TSpade 5Heart - 2Club - 7 Heart and you hold AHeart JHeart. You cbet the flop for 1/2 pot and were called by the fish. You continued with a 3/5 pot bet on the turn and were called by the fish. What do you on the river? If you are out of position, you have to decide between betting small hoping to get a call from a Kx or maybe even Tx hand, betting big to get called by AK, two pair and small flushes, or to check hoping he bets a flush and you can check/raise. What if you are in position? Well if he checks to you, you might reasonably assume that his range of hands that made a flush is less likely, since he may have bet out with them, so you might make a medium sized bet because think his range isn't strong enough to call a huge bet. But if he leads into you, he probably has a flush, and you can use that information to decide how large a raise he will call. While this dream scenario does not come up too often, being able to extract several hundred additional bbs when it does happen is huge for your winrate.

Finally, a logistics comment. You'll often get asked why you changed your seat, especially if you have just won a few pots in that seat. (The most common reason other players move is because their seat is "cold". Some do this before asking for a setup, others try the setup first. Either way, it's both quite annoying while simultaneously lolworthy.) Here are a few things I've come up with if I can't complain about being card dead: (1) I want a better angle to watch TV / check out some girl. (2) I can't see the board from my original seat (works good if you are at either end of the table). (3) It was too tight over there (people too close to you). (4) As a last resort, I complain about the smell / breath / demeanor / conversational ineptitude of one of the people next to me. Given that it's live poker, reason (4) is going to be applicable about 80% of the time, but I try to bring it up unless I can't come up with anything else remotely plausible. But the most important thing is to make sure you don't reveal your real reason, both because you don't want other regs trying to do the same and you don't want to upset regular fish who might start to stand up if you sit at their table because they take offense at you targeting them.

Posted 10 months ago

grandmofftarkin

Avatar for grandmofftarkin

493 posts
Joined 04/2011

I'd add that if the seat immediately to you left opens up and the person to you right isn't that weak of a player -- just slide to your left so the open seat is now to your right. Most likely the person that fills the new open seat isn't going to be amazing. Odds are in your favor right?

Edit: I suppose I don't need "Additionally" preceding my use of "I'd add" ...

Posted 10 months ago

grandmofftarkin

Avatar for grandmofftarkin

493 posts
Joined 04/2011

And not that I play that high, but I'd add that as you move up in stakes, the player pool gets smaller and the weaker players will notice why you moved more often. I'll let some higher up DC Coaches confirm this...

But for the majority of us, villains are more concerned with whether they should get chow mein or fried rice with their kung pao chicken.

Posted 10 months ago

Buck_Neket

Avatar for Buck_Neket

167 posts
Joined 03/2011

sweetjazz3

Avatar for sweetjazz3

1999 posts
Joined 02/2007

Additionally, I'd add that if the seat immediately to you left opens up and the person to you right isn't that big of a "fish" -- just slide to your left so the open seat is now to your right. Most likely the person that fills the new open seat isn't going to be amazing. Odds are in your favor right?



Yeah this is definitely correct. If the game is kinda lousy and you're just waiting it out expecting it to get better, definitely move to leave open seats to your right.

Posted 10 months ago

Buck_Neket

Avatar for Buck_Neket

167 posts
Joined 03/2011

Additionally, I'd add that if the seat immediately to you left opens up and the person to you right isn't that weak of a player -- just slide to your left so the open seat is now to your right. Most likely the person that fills the new open seat isn't going to be amazing. Odds are in your favor right?



Agreed. I do it because when an unknown sits down on my right; I can cut down on mistakes I would make against an unknown OOP, and capitalize on the mistakes an unknown would make against me just because I'm unknown.

Posted 10 months ago

NinaWilliams

Avatar for NinaWilliams

822 posts
Joined 12/2007

seat selection is really more complicated than just having the biggest fish on your right. It's very dependent on dynamics. For example, in a lot of line ups, having the fish on your direct right is actually quite bad because he becomes very difficult to isolate because everyone else wants to play pots with him too. You also have to deal with awkward spots of isolating from earlyish position. In tough line ups, you'll get 3 bet quite wide when you iso raise.

I like having the fish directly to my right if the players behind are tight. But I'd rather have 2 loose but not as bad players sandwiched in between us than have the whale to immediate right. If I'm in a spot where my iso raises are getting constantly 3 bet, I prefer that my target is 1 to my left so that he's in the bb when i'm on my button. One more spot that comes up is that when someone is straddling every time they're utg, I'll move so that I have the button when they're straddling almost regardless of what else is going on.

Posted 10 months ago

sweetjazz3

Avatar for sweetjazz3

1999 posts
Joined 02/2007

@Nina: You're absolutely right. Very good points. Having tight, predictable opponents on your left is very valuable as well. In fact, even if a game isn't very good, if I can have the two seats to my left be occupied by the two biggest nits at the table, I"ll happily stay and wait for the game to get better, because I'll basically have 3 buttons each orbit while everyone else gets just 1.

Some of your comments tend to apply only to higher games and not so much to 1/2 or 1/3, but they are still well taken. I certainly agree that if you have 5 seats arranged as X - SF - SF - Y - BF where X and Y are open seats, the two SF seats are occupied by small fish, and the BF seat is occupied by a big fish (worst player, deepest stack), you should choose seat X instead of seat Y.

One rule of thumb as to whether you want to be on the direct left or direct right of a winning, deep player if you have a choice is that if he is good enough to flat/3bet a lot of your raises and raise a lot of your limps in position, then sit to his left so he can't do that. If he is a weaker player who will fold to your raises because he doesn't want to play a big pot with you, then you of course want to be on his right so you can drive out his KQo and ATo hands when you isolate the fish with Q9s and A8s etc.

I like your straddle point, especially the deeper everyone at the table is.

Assuming an otherwise easy table, I'd say the value of having the fish x seats to your right is about the same (and at its maximum value) for x = 1,2,3 and then starts to go down more and more quickly as x gets bigger and reaches its minimum of course when x = 9. I definitely wouldn't argue if you told me that the max is actually at x=3 or so.

Posted 10 months ago

medic2038

Avatar for medic2038

299 posts
Joined 07/2009

Nina, you make a very interesting point about straddles. I may have to try it! I'm usually aware of a straddler's tendencies enough that sometimes (when they raise ATC) I'll flat/raise with a big hand. Different discussion entirely though so I'll stay on topic!

I actually remember one of the coaching vids I watched a few years ago (maybe one of the baluga series?) talked about how money always flows to the left. I agree entirely with the point as well. You don't necessarily need to be the the immediate right of the fish, as long as you have great relative position on them in most hands.

Posted 10 months ago

CF23

Avatar for CF23

844 posts
Joined 10/2008

great information in here, thanks sweetjazz keep it coming.

i only recently started to play live again. £1/1 (lowest available).
Tommy Angelo makes a point in his book Elements of Poker to always slide to the left to keep as much open space to your right. i've started to do this and it's quite good actually.
so if it goes down to 7 or 6 handed, i slide as much as i can making new players sit on my right. i'll still have weaker existing (i.e. alraedy seated) players on my right most of the time.

so over the course of 2 hours i might have moved 3-4 times around the table...

Posted 10 months ago

inavacuum

Avatar for inavacuum

1152 posts
Joined 04/2008

Question for the live vets, why are live regfish so afraid of playing short-handed? Although I play live a good deal, this is something I've never got my head around. Online I find fish are happy to play as long as there are 3/4 players at the table. Live it's like they won't play unless there are at least 6 players. One of the typical fat, old regfish at the casino I go to most often frequently berates me for being a nit (lols) but always refuses me HU action when a table breaks. Considering the casino actually gives a rake-reduction for playing short-handed I thought they'd be happy with it. I am always trying to better understand the mindset of weaker players, but this one has me a bit stumped. Is it as simple as just being out of their ultra-comfort zone?

Posted 10 months ago

grandmofftarkin

Avatar for grandmofftarkin

493 posts
Joined 04/2011

Question for the live vets, why are live regfish so afraid of playing short-handed? Although I play live a good deal, this is something I've never got my head around. Online I find fish are happy to play as long as there are 3/4 players at the table. Live it's like they won't play unless there are at least 6 players. One of the typical fat, old regfish at the casino I go to most often frequently berates me for being a nit (lols) but always refuses me HU action when a table breaks. Considering the casino actually gives a rake-reduction for playing short-handed I thought they'd be happy with it. I am always trying to better understand the mindset of weaker players, but this one has me a bit stumped. Is it as simple as just being out of their ultra-comfort zone?


From what I understand it's because they don't realize how/why money actually leaves the table. These players complain about the blinds "going around too fast." (i.e. they think that's why they lose money out of their stack). But as we all know, in reality, it gets dropped down the rake shoot.

Posted 10 months ago

medic2038

Avatar for medic2038

299 posts
Joined 07/2009

Question for the live vets, why are live regfish so afraid of playing short-handed? Although I play live a good deal, this is something I've never got my head around. Online I find fish are happy to play as long as there are 3/4 players at the table. Live it's like they won't play unless there are at least 6 players. One of the typical fat, old regfish at the casino I go to most often frequently berates me for being a nit (lols) but always refuses me HU action when a table breaks. Considering the casino actually gives a rake-reduction for playing short-handed I thought they'd be happy with it. I am always trying to better understand the mindset of weaker players, but this one has me a bit stumped. Is it as simple as just being out of their ultra-comfort zone?



At my casino if it's 6 handed or less we get reduced rake, $1 max(+1 bbj)
Since I originally played 6max, I feel comfortable playing short. I go from somewhat tight(around a 15% vpip) to really opening it up. I don't think most know how to adjust very well.

Like grand say, some of their rational is "the blinds go around too fast" despite the fact that a lot of times those guys chop with each other.

Posted 10 months ago

sweetjazz3

Avatar for sweetjazz3

1999 posts
Joined 02/2007

You can't win the BBJ if there are too few players at the table!

Posted 10 months ago

Luke00016

Avatar for Luke00016

1114 posts
Joined 11/2009

You can't win the BBJ if there are too few players at the table!



This is easily the #1 reason I hear from live players who don't like to play short handed.

Posted 10 months ago




HomePoker ForumsLive Poker → Keys to Live Poker II: Seat Selection