Mid/High Stakes Limit Hold'em Poker Forums

no, the logic is that if he does bet turn then his range narrows somewhat and is stronger, and as such maybe we don't want to c/r the turn - as opposed to someone who always 2barrels - can tell those guys by AF say 2.2 on flop and 2.1 on turn but drops to 1.4 on river or whatever

vs someone who's say 30/24 or something and most always 2barrels i think c/c c/r is a fine balancing play on a lot of turn cards fwiw

no, the logic is that if he does bet turn then his range narrows somewhat and is stronger, and as such maybe we don't want to c/r the turn - as opposed to someone who always 2barrels - can tell those guys by AF say 2.2 on flop and 2.1 on turn but drops to 1.4 on river or whatever

So we pick a line that assures that a bet goes in on the turn when he has a strong range, and zero bets go in if we have the best hand.

sure, as opposed to more bets going in on the flop (when we c/r) and then more on the turn (when he raises us and i assume b/f is not an option)?

and some of the time when we have the best hand he calls our flop c/r and folds the turn, but if he checks back the turn he may call a river bet with 0 equity, etc. or if he 2barrels twice with a worse hand and checks back the river we may have gotten reasonable value vs something that could have b/f the flop or b/c flop c/f turn.

i'm just trying to think of what's the best line vs his overall range, not just for the times when we're ahead. it's fine for you and me to disagree though, obviously - this sort of discussion is what makes the forums good and helps us all learn. it's not like i'm right because i have the 'coach' tag, here or in any thread.

and we're debating a pretty close situation to begin with anyway. i think we can agree that say AK is a standard flop checkraise in this spot, with KQ probably also being so, and that KJ/KT/K8 are the cusp of the range, so to speak

I think when we read the HH we all see he bet the river and that influences things a bit results oriented subconsciously. I would CR the turn, if I don't have the image to get called down light there I'd be shocked and not bluffing enough.

btw Nina can you PM me the raw hand history? I just wrote some Merge support for the converter but it thinks its a no limit hand - I goofed up somewhere but don't have many examples

yeah that's a good point DD

I wonder what the plan is pre flop when you call UTG with KJos OOP, then flop Kxx. I just don't get it. 5 handed UTG ranges are wider shouldn't a 3 bet be the right play pre if you are gonna play it at all? If UTG is raising wider in a 5 handed game isn't your flat OOP from the BB representing an even wider range? I am lost here.

I wonder what the plan is pre flop when you call UTG with KJos OOP, then flop Kxx. I just don't get it. 5 handed UTG ranges are wider shouldn't a 3 bet be the right play pre if you are gonna play it at all? If UTG is raising wider in a 5 handed game isn't your flat OOP from the BB representing an even wider range? I am lost here.

we're a limit holdem forum (not sure if you're an nl guy or not, but sometimes they come in here). 3betting anything in this spot pf is kind of old-fashioned these days, since utg's range is stronger than ours, and were out of position, so in general making the pot bigger preflop isn't going to favor us. we could certainly only 3bet the top of our range -- the hands we know are beating utg's range -- but then we end up giving away a lot of free information to our opponents in the long run. they'll be able to figure out that when we 3bet here preflop we have only a very strong hand.

in general, since we're correctly going to be calling a lot of stuff here preflop (and imagine in the BB defending vs a BTN open, for example), the idea is to just call with the strong stuff too, to hide information about your handstrength. you can then checkraise favorable flops if you like, which creates the same potsize as if you'd 3bet preflop and then cbet the flop. except this way, you've chosen only favorable flops for when you want to increase the pot size

Scratching head. I thought this was a NL hand. Even limit holdem this hand is often dominated vs. UTG standard open raise range. The hand is not suited, or connected and is going to be crushed when it flops a pair vs UTG open. Even a loose UTG open. But it is a 5 handed game so I defer to what u say. I wont lie I do regurgitate a lot of what I learned from reading Small Stakes Holdem (didn't know any O.G.s limit players to teach me). I guess its just a bad spot for the BB with KJ os he is destined to get the dog walked on him when he flops top pair OOP.

Scratching head. I thought this was a NL hand. Even limit holdem this hand is often dominated vs. UTG standard open raise range. The hand is not suited, or connected and is going to be crushed when it flops a pair vs UTG open. Even a loose UTG open. But it is a 5 handed game so I defer to what u say. I wont lie I do regurgitate a lot of what I learned from reading Small Stakes Holdem (didn't know any O.G.s limit players to teach me). I guess its just a bad spot for the BB with KJ os he is destined to get the dog walked on him when he flops top pair OOP.

the converter messed up - it says 500nl but by looking at the bet sizes it's likely limit

i'm bad at no limit but i'd guess it'd be a fold preflop there

Three DC coaches ITT and we're mostly ok with check calling down top pair third kicker against some random readless tag who opened in the hijack. Uh?

Well, i think it could be correct/optimal to c/c, c/..... our entire contuing range BB vs UTG fwiw

Well, i think it could be correct/optimal to c/c, c/..... our entire contuing range BB vs UTG fwiw

this is very interesting and one of the responses i was looking for.

FWIW no one seems to mention the fact that a large part of his call down range value bets itself. that factored heavily into my play.

If we are looking at the generic opponents 2barrel range from utg what do you think that they are opening and what do you think they are 2barreling on a texture like this?

If we are looking at the generic opponents 2barrel range from utg what do you think that they are opening and what do you think they are 2barreling on a texture like this?

well, what are your ranges in those spots?