Mid/High Stakes Limit Hold'em Poker Forums

I think 3 betting the turn here is pretty bad, and the decision is actually between calling and folding.
Given OTR's slightly wider 4 betting range (still pretty narrow) and the fact that he's not c-betting this flop with UI over, his range on the turn is like 88+ Also given the fact, that I very seldom try to get good showdownable players to fold pairs, I can't imagine raising this turn (in villian's spot) with to many worse hands.

i think he'd probably cbet anything he 4bet pf, so that leaves lots of combos of AKo, AKs, probably AQs AJs as well, maybe KQs, maybe AQo (?)

i think he'd probably cbet anything he 4bet pf, so that leaves lots of combos of AKo, AKs, probably AQs AJs as well, maybe KQs, maybe AQo (?)

I don't think you guys understand exactly how wide my range is here. I also don't think I'm checking back much, but the fact that everyone has pretty wide ranges relative to the action means that I probably should sometimes. I'm certainly not checking back any part of my standard 4 betting range.

Given your descriptions of the players involved and situation I think I'd 3bet the flop here with JJ and delay until the turn with JTs+.
As played I think UTG+2 most likely has a deceptively played set or something like 89s/A9. I wouldn't rule out any PP completely though but I would be a little suprised to see him take this line with Tx.
I think there's a chance he may even possibly take this flop cc line with a hand like 66 or JQ looking to see whether you 3bet the flop and then what the turn brings figuring if you just call the flop and the turn is a non-broadway (which by default are the capping range cards) he'll be able to iso raise you off a ton of your hands (since most people by default fastplay overpairs on the flop especially on boards like this and it'll be hard for you to cc 2 BBs on the turn w AK but not 2 SBs on the flop necessarily).
I'm not sure of what to do on the turn but due to the spazzy player having a wide range and wanting to protect vs or charge his whatever (even if it's 3 outs) in a big pot combined with the decent chance we're still ahead of UTG+2 I think I'd go for the 3bet but it may well be too thin, I'm not sure.

Having said all that I guess if UTG+2 isn't folding the flop once he's cc'd 2 I can see why we might want to cap our JTs+ due to them having more outs if we are behind and calling with our JJ to see safe turns. If we do just call the flop with JJ we should be able to fold K or A turns if UTG+2 raises on them due to them hitting some of his possible flop cc range and due to them really hitting our flop complete range so if he can raise on them it's very unlikely he's bluffing.

Wow how is this anything but a turn 3bet given the descriptions of players? UTG+2 has a huge incentive to knock you out and will probably just be protecting lots of pairs against a spazzy UTG+1.

I like your flop action, since you will be just calling with a wide portion of your range (unimproved over cards), 3betting JJ here just turns your hand too face up for me and it doesn't let one of the players c/r and bet any pair for value when you take a call the flop line.

I agree with dosXX...

the spazzy guy spazzes like you expect, and raised a flop where both of his opponents could have high cards (in his dreams) and even you said the UTG+2 has a wide wide range. The +2 guy could easily raise the turn with the same type weak pair (plus draw perhaps) hoping to knock YOU out.

the turn continuation bet is the only thing we expect from the spaz correct? So the +2 guy knows this as well. I 3 bet the turn to see how spazzy the tilter can be. Maybe he can 4 bet and really put the +2 guy to the test with QQ or JJ even? It also makes him pay max if he has a pair plus draw type hand... Did the turn put up a second suit? Could the +2 guy do this play with overs and a flush draw? Then it may be very reasonable for the +2 guy to riase hoping to clean up outs and perhaps even do a FSDR himself.

I am not expecting to win this hand every time, but the extra money the spaz puts in will make up for the equity the +2 may have over me if I am beat already. If +2 has a set, or an overpair, my straight outs are good probably, (maybe split with spazzy)) in addition to other hands that improve on river.

Not really sure what to do with a J on river... would be interesting spot for sure. Would a b/f on a jack be okay? or possibly miss value by x/c ?

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My first note is you need to figure out how your going to play this hand out at the flop and not on the turn.

I feel like your beat here more than 2/3's of the time and since there are 2 other player's in the pot any additional money you put in with a likely dominated hand is negative ev. I like a flat call or fold on the turn after your mistakes on the flop, if you call it is likely that trips, two-pair or straight are all 3-betting for you anyways. UTG +2 probably has a set of 9's, especially if he is prone to limp re-raising AA or KK in early position. This would account for his 3-bet looking a bit out of the ordinary and not liking the call on the flop. I mean these guys aren't folding for one more bet on the turn so you have to out-draw them anyways and UTG+2 might cap the turn costing you an extra 2bets vs the flat call.

Other problem here is that UTG+1's CR indicates that he either feels his over-pair is better than yours, wants to gain information with two over-cards like ak/aq/aj/kq suited or maybe even got lucky with a made hand, hell it could even represent flopping a gut shot with the flush draw since you don't remember the board. pocket 10's would be a hand that bad players seemingly just fall into having trips a lot lol

Now when the 9 hits and both player's seem to think there ahead, why on earth would you think your ahead unimproved? Given how the hand has played out I would never 3bet this turn.

The only thing to consider here is pure win share. 3way pot, how often will I win? If more than 1 out of 3 times then you can consider 3 betting the turn. Also if UTG+2 is a really good player he does not have a weak pp here if he has one, he would know that he needs to get heads up to make a 3-bet with anything under 88's here profitable(pre-flop).

I feel that capping with the jacks may even be a mistake(based on reads you should have on these guys) since you have position the entire hand and your vs UTG+1 and UTG+2. I probably wouldn't cap a pot with jacks vs a player I respect who is making a play on an UTG+1 Raiser.

You messed up on the flop by letting the fish keep the lead with an ambiguous check raise. Your big mistake is not 3-betting that flop to see if +1 calls or caps to see where he is at. A capped flop will make UTG+2 fold the largest portion of his range. If he calls with 99's here, well he's not going to be playing 40/80 very long, I would have put you on jacks or better after your flop 3-bet. You might keep the lead and get the loose cannon to try for a check-raise on the turn even if he improves. Also you get more information when they fight on the turn for the lead.

The most value that will ever come from this hand is playing it straight forward and controlling the play so you can dump it with minimum losses when your beat. This holds even more true if your a player who's going to be calling this down in dis-belief.

Heres a question, let's assume UTG+1 is playing 100/100 ATM (he had 10-4o this hand) and plays very poorly post-flop (i.e. I have a sick success rate
Bluff raising every river with my range that has no showdown value) ; what's your 3 betting range look like?

Before coming up with a specific range, I think you need to consider the skill level (and awareness) of the players acting behind you.

If there's a tough lineup who realizes what's going on, and isn't afraid to re-ISO with a wide range(OTR), then we need to be careful about loosening up too much. The same rules apply if there are a lot of loose/wild players left to act who won't hesitate to take three to the face with a hand like K6s.

If it's a soft, nitty field with a bunch of guys playing Words With Friends on their iPads, I'd look to expand my ISOing range to include as many playable hands as possible.

Heres a question, let's assume UTG+1 is playing 100/100 ATM (he had 10-4o this hand) and plays very poorly post-flop (i.e. I have a sick success rate
Bluff raising every river with my range that has no showdown value) ; what's your 3 betting range look like?

Yeah I think you got too wrapped up in isoing the fish here without regard for the lineup behind you. For example the hand you 3bet here is way too loose given who was behind you IMO.