Mid/High Stakes Limit Hold'em Poker Forums

Moti--

I have seen many many turns and rivers get checked in circumstances I would have never imagined (and were clearly wrong IMO)

+1

I hate to say what we don't want to hear, but its opponent specific for the raiser and the limpers. Since this hand is an example from a book, we don't really know here.

In my games, the majority of the poor checking occurs on the river, or between two old regulars when it's just heads up. I have some villians that are "good" enough to bet again on the turn but shut down on the river, and some that shut down automatically in large pots.

Agree GMT,

but at the Commerce (8/16) where I have most of my live experience, and at Winstar (4/8) where I have some, the player pools are big enough that I am usually at a table with at least 5-6 new players. Randomly, that does not make for 'table reads' in large multi way pots.

If you want to wait till the turn, I have no problem with it. I am just wondering how everyone is so convinced that the first two positions have draws? If you x/c the flop, and they call again, you are giving them the correct odds to call right there. If you make them pay to draw to the offsuit gutshot, some will perhaps fold incorrectly. If they fold, you will be head up with the original raiser, and being OOP and having the lead would be better than hoping for the check/raise , right?

Is the live player always playing perfectly against us? My feeling is 'no'. So, perhaps the live player folds incorrectly when I raise the flop, thinking that "hmm, even if i hit my gutshot, if its a I might be beat by the flush, and for sure if there is a river." Or maybe they are not aware of the pot odds, (I know you guys are probably seeing the regulars be able to count the huge one dollar mound up quickly and accurately, but I am not). Or maybe they don't feel good about it. Or maybe, or maybe, or maybe....

I dont mind them folding the flop, and I think giving them the added incentive is not a huge mistake.

which

I play 8/16 live and it plays like 1/2 online, maybe even less. The tags in these games are usually open raising so I am assuming the limpers aren't necessarily good players. This board crushes the limping ranges and I don't think these players will fold for two more with hands that we would like them to fold on the flop. I also don't think players C bet this board 100% of the time. My assumption is that if the preflop raiser decides to bet this flop then he has a strong enough hand to bet a blank turn. I do agree that the C better may check some turns, however, the turns he checks are probably turns that potentially kill our hand.

I don't think there is a great way to protect our hand other than waiting for the turn. I view this more as a "lets just see what happens" hand rather than " yeah! we have two pair" hand. I say this under my assumption that it will still be a MW pot going to the turn.

Obviously specific reads could change our approach here.

Moti—

There are 9.5 SB in on the flop after the drop. Two bets in on the flop and it is up to you?

You call and both limpers call, now 14.5 SB plus extra rake prob, so make it 7 BB on turn. You x/r giving the pre flop limpers 10BB to 2 bets minimum and that assumes the BTN folds the turn.

Are you really pricing out the draws?

If the naked A just calls the flop in EP for one bet would he be making a mistake? Not by much, and if he had any type of other draw he is probably calling correctly.

Would the BTN have the draw rather than the MP? If he does, your waiting gains you nothing.

I am not saying that your idea for the turn x/r is wrong, just that in my opinion it is close. And perhaps correct.

My fear is that the BTN perhaps has a decent hand, and is waiting for the turn to protect his hand. So you check, the MP opens, the BTN raises to “price out the draws ….” And you having under represented your hand ????

Come to think of it, what would you do in that situation?

which

Moti—

There are 9.5 SB in on the flop after the drop. Two bets in on the flop and it is up to you?

You call and both limpers call, now 14.5 SB plus extra rake prob, so make it 7 BB on turn. You x/r giving the pre flop limpers 10BB to 2 bets minimum and that assumes the BTN folds the turn.

Are you really pricing out the draws?

If the naked A just calls the flop in EP for one bet would he be making a mistake? Not by much, and if he had any type of other draw he is probably calling correctly.

Would the BTN have the draw rather than the MP? If he does, your waiting gains you nothing.

I am not saying that your idea for the turn x/r is wrong, just that in my opinion it is close. And perhaps correct.

My fear is that the BTN perhaps has a decent hand, and is waiting for the turn to protect his hand. So you check, the MP opens, the BTN raises to “price out the draws ….” And you having under represented your hand ????

Come to think of it, what would you do in that situation?

which

Hey Which,

I may not be pricing out all the draws with a raise on the turn but I would be making them pay with just one card to come.

I think both of these plays come with their downsides. Ultimately a good read could stear me either way.

In your hypothetical button raise scenario I would definately need to be there to have a feel for what to do. I would be leaning towards a 3b mostly.

you can't always price out the draws. limit holdem is way more about value and way less about protection, imo. 'holdem poker for advanced players' or whatever one it was that talked about protection constantly is pretty inaccurate today.

BBB-

You play live more than I do I think, what is your take on turns getting checked through?

Do you see it more than online players might expect,, less often, or about right?

I definitely agree about the over use of the "protection" idea.

I think so many of us have been online for so long, it may be coloring our judgement of live games.

which

i don't play tons of live except for a month during wsop time out in vegas - and only a few times a year otherwise. i have seen lots of flops and turns getting checked through (when compared to online) out here in vegas

Haven't played live since October

haven't played online since April

which

limit holdem is way more about value and way less about protection, imo. 'holdem poker for advanced players' or whatever one it was that talked about protection constantly is pretty inaccurate today.

Interesting... what would you say has changed that made protection obsolete? I can't remember what HPFAP had to say about it, my examples were from SSHE.

I marked Hero's check on the flop with a ? but there aren't too many votes for donking out the flop. I'd think that as a reasonable way of protection here, hoping to get 3-betting if someone has a Q?

The problem with donking is after everyone calls your 1st bet, they may feel "committed" after putting in any money on a particular street.

I also think all the above comments about the "preflop raiser getting scared...and checking through the turn after seeing several players call on the flop" might apply here (i.e. if they see a donk, and several people call, they may get scared off and only raise with a monster).

If you have any inclination villian will go ahead and put in that flop raise, I still don't think it will be for protection, just pot building. (At least this is what I've seen, but if you're live game is different, go for it!).

Interesting... what would you say has changed that made protection obsolete? I can't remember what HPFAP had to say about it, my examples were from SSHE.

i think the game conditions that hpfap talked about don't really exist much any more. the higher stakes games are more aggressive in general and people are more aggressive with their draws (more semibluffing). and i never greatly understood the emphasis on protection in lower stakes games, which we've always been happy about being chock full of bad chasers who never fold. seems like vs nonfolding chasers it becomes about value more than protection

i think it ties in with a lot of players' fear of losing pots, instead of a fear of losing value. i'd rather get max value constantly so the pots i do win are big ones

I think it is being ignored just how many bad cards can come on this turn that can ruin your hand. Waiting for the turn seems to be a no brainer to me. I think those who are advocating raising this flop are overvalueing the strength of this hand relative to this board and the number of opponents.

If you take away two players I would now be much more inclined to play this fast and CR. In this situation there would still be plenty of bad cards that could hit the turn, but it would be less likely to hurt our hand. Now I would like to get in the extra bet on the flop and have initiative on the turn since scary cards could come that might make my opponents check it back.