Mid/High Stakes Limit Hold'em Poker Forums

UTG limper is 71/7
Isolater is 29/29 over tiny sample, no other reads

After doing a session review, this is one of the hands that seemed to bug me the most. I know villain continues to show strength into a three way pot, but I feel like the fish shouldnt even count because he might not even have two cards...

fold flop getting 15:1?
payoff river getting 12.5:1?

Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 899688
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is CO with Q K
UTG calls, MP raises, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG calls, MP calls

Flop: (10.5 SB) 5 7 A (3 players)
UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP raises, Hero requests TIME, Hero calls, UTG calls

Turn: (8.25 BB) T (3 players)
UTG checks, MP bets, Hero calls, UTG calls

River: (11.25 BB) 7 (3 players)
UTG checks, MP bets, Hero...

of course the fish counts. MP knows he isn't folding, so he's just going for straight value. Fold flop and for sure fold river.

of course the fish counts. MP knows he isn't folding, so he's just going for straight value. Fold flop and for sure fold river.

Yeah I agree with this. People usually play more straightforwardly in these spots due to the presence of the fish.

Yeah I agree with this. People usually play more straightforwardly in these spots due to the presence of the fish.

Yea this makes perfect sense... thanks for the responses. I guess I just see those huge prices and im like a kid in a candy store. I did fold river though.

of course the fish counts. MP knows he isn't folding, so he's just going for straight value. Fold flop and for sure fold river.

Agree with the part about villain going for straight value, however; it seems like with our back door draws, even if we know villain has an ace its gotta be close to a peel on the flop. Are you peeling with the KQ? What odds do we need before your peeling with KQ?

Agree with the part about villain going for straight value, however; it seems like with our back door draws, even if we know villain has an ace its gotta be close to a peel on the flop. Are you peeling with the KQ? What odds do we need before your peeling with KQ?

you're going to need a much better price than this. You're about 25-1 to make your bd flush and pretty unlikely to make your straight. It also costs you an extra bet when you pick up an extra bet and miss, so keep that in mind.

you're going to need a much better price than this. You're about 25-1 to make your bd flush and pretty unlikely to make your straight. It also costs you an extra bet when you pick up an extra bet and miss, so keep that in mind.

This can't be right... if hero picks up a flush draw it's not going to cost him a bet to call turn. The pot will be huge at that point.

This can't be right... if hero picks up a flush draw it's not going to cost him a bet to call turn. The pot will be huge at that point.

you never miss your flush draw? Must be nice.

Do we have no best hand value on this flop? When I refered to the fish often not having anything, I was refering to the thought that his flop call in between us could be any two cards... therefore, doesnt villain have more incentive to semi bluff with the padding of the fish? Could villain never play hearts or a combo draw like 8 9 type hand? Folding the flop still seems kind of gross to me so Im trying to find a way of thinking about it that makes me more comfortable. With such a large price, I feel like any single combination of a semi bluff would make up enough of his range for us to peel getting 14.5:1 or whatever it is. And then if we do continue, I feel like the turn peel is justifiable since we almost have the price for our gut + position for implied odds + if we ever had the best hand on the flop then its still often good on the turn.

Hard to say what goes through various villains' heads, but you don't have more incentive to semibluff if you know someone is peeling with a draw. The reason is that your chances of the semibluff succeeding are much less (you need for the original bettor not to have a hand with showdown value and you need the person on the draw to brick out), while the extra money in the pot does not make it much larger in relative terms.

It's sort of the same reason that we don't make more money when we bet or raise for value with a made hand versus a draw than we would if the draw just folded immediately (assuming the draw has enough outs given the pot size). The extra bets we collect from the draw are worth less than if the draw just folded its entire equity immediately.

you're going to need a much better price than this. You're about 25-1 to make your bd flush and pretty unlikely to make your straight. It also costs you an extra bet when you pick up an extra bet and miss, so keep that in mind.

i meant when you pick up a draw and miss

Do we have no best hand value on this flop? When I refered to the fish often not having anything, I was refering to the thought that his flop call in between us could be any two cards... therefore, doesnt villain have more incentive to semi bluff with the padding of the fish? Could villain never play hearts or a combo draw like 8 9 type hand? Folding the flop still seems kind of gross to me so Im trying to find a way of thinking about it that makes me more comfortable. With such a large price, I feel like any single combination of a semi bluff would make up enough of his range for us to peel getting 14.5:1 or whatever it is. And then if we do continue, I feel like the turn peel is justifiable since we almost have the price for our gut + position for implied odds + if we ever had the best hand on the flop then its still often good on the turn.

You know, you're getting a really good price when you buy lottery tickets too.