Mid/High Stakes Limit Hold'em Poker Forums

Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 1153119
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Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is BB with 5 3
2 folds, BTN raises, 1 fold, Hero calls

Flop: (4.5 SB) T 4 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero raises, BTN calls

Turn: (4.25 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN calls

River: (6.25 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN raises, Hero calls

What do we think about this hand overall, against an unknown. This is from the 10 game where I am not sure but I feel like his value range here but it seems like there are a LOT of combos of flushes...but also a LOT of combos of Jx. So I am torn.

I think its well played and Id go ahead and 3 bet and expect to win when we are just called and expect to lose most the time when we are capped but its still an easy call at that point. nh.

c/r river imo. as played, i don't think you can really 3bet, even though you're winning this one a lot.

I would usually fistpump 3bet the river.

meh, after counting again i concede that 3betting looks right. quite a few Jx hands that make sense for villain to have.

I put him on 66. River tree

Definitely 3! the river.

Yeah def river 3.

c/r river imo.

Why is this a good spot to c/r ?

Why is this a good spot to c/r ?

Meh, my initial recommendation of a c/r was partly based on my initial impression that a 3bet might be too thin, but w/e, here's a couple arguments in favor of a c/r:

- a lot of your range just HAS to check this river. The ultimate scare card just hit, and you have to adjust to how that affects your and your opponents ranges. A lot of your value hands just turned into bluffcatchers, almost all of your bluffs just got there. BB should have had more value hands than bluffs on the turn, but a lot of those value hands just can't valuebet anymore. Whereas on a blank river the BB should be betting the majority of his range, on this river the default play should be to check, (either c/f or c/c). This should be balanced by c/r-ing a couple strong hands. Theoretically, your c/r range should be mostly made up of hands that are strong enough to c/r/cap, hands that aren't quite strong enough to b/3bet, and bluffs.

In this particular case, c/r almost certainly maximizes your value versus:

hands that were bluffcatching on the turn but can't call anymore: ( mostly A hi, bottom pair), since villain might (should!) turn some of these into bluffs.

hands that will valuebet more or less thinly, but are unlikely to raise river: mostly 6x, some rivered 2pairs, 99, mayyyyyybe Jx (which will probably raise, whether or not that's good)

on the other hand, c/r might actually SAVE you a bet (compared to b/3b), if you run into a better flush

on the downside, there's quite a few hands that b/3b gets more value from:
mostly Jx, but also some A9 type of hands that might pay off a river bet (even tho that looks kinda bad), but won't bet if checked to.

+1 to 3! and I feel like I've struck fnupple gold by reading this thread.

3bet the river def.

betting the river is a million times better than checkraising btw.

Becuase we get to 3bet the times he raises.

Meh, my initial recommendation of a c/r was partly based on my initial impression that a 3bet might be too thin, but w/e, here's a couple arguments in favor of a c/r:

- a lot of your range just HAS to check this river. The ultimate scare card just hit, and you have to adjust to how that affects your and your opponents ranges. A lot of your value hands just turned into bluffcatchers, almost all of your bluffs just got there. BB should have had more value hands than bluffs on the turn, but a lot of those value hands just can't valuebet anymore. Whereas on a blank river the BB should be betting the majority of his range, on this river the default play should be to check, (either c/f or c/c). This should be balanced by c/r-ing a couple strong hands. Theoretically, your c/r range should be mostly made up of hands that are strong enough to c/r/cap, hands that aren't quite strong enough to b/3bet, and bluffs.

In this particular case, c/r almost certainly maximizes your value versus:

hands that were bluffcatching on the turn but can't call anymore: ( mostly A hi, bottom pair), since villain might (should!) turn some of these into bluffs.

hands that will valuebet more or less thinly, but are unlikely to raise river: mostly 6x, some rivered 2pairs, 99, mayyyyyybe Jx (which will probably raise, whether or not that's good)

on the other hand, c/r might actually SAVE you a bet (compared to b/3b), if you run into a better flush

on the downside, there's quite a few hands that b/3b gets more value from:
mostly Jx, but also some A9 type of hands that might pay off a river bet (even tho that looks kinda bad), but won't bet if checked to.

Given the nature of the board what kind of hands are we really check/calling here? I cant really think of more than a select few, and its also a good bluff card for us should we somehow have nothing by the river, which is why i like the bet3bet river line better than cr, although i see your point about the only thing we beat when we 3bet and he calls is a jack, and if youre in his shoes we could potentially fold some of the time, but not very likely given how little people actually fold. On the same token he will bet-call it off with a ton of hands that will only call our bet in the first place. So im kinda warming up to the river cr idea the more i think about it.

Quick question: this is the worst hand I will ever have to bet/3bet this river right? Like I can definitely have JT here, would you bet/3bet that, or is that a bet/call?

I`d bet call unless i know for a fact that my opponent can have sets or a worse straight which is extremely rare for them to raise, so yeah i`d just call. Worst hand to 3bet would have to beeee.. I guess? Simply because i think most people would try to rebluff back with spades, and i expect them to raise Jx every time.