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Poker Video: Limit Hold'Em by DeathDonkey (Mid Stakes)

Yeah, interesting video.

I was just wondering whether you would have continued this particular match had it been it your normal limits and not a coaching video. To me, it seemed that the situation was pretty bad there given that he was relentlessly aggressive and the fact that you kept running into bigger hands in bad spots and that your bluffs didn't work. Also, there weren't too many easily identifiable leaks in his play, although he did overplay some hands on big streets, so it was not clear at that point that you were such a big favorite that the tide would eventually turn around.

I mean, the mental edge, or the momentum, was heavily on his side and like we saw in this video it's hard to counter-attack.

I know you're a tough professional, but it did seem like the typical "I will show this guy who's the better player" type of mentality, although I'm sure you wouldn't fall for that kind of thinking. I do know that it takes time and a bit warmer deck to be able to find the weaknesses of such a player, but somehow it seemed that there would have been many good spots to just quit the match.

One particular thing I would like to note is that while his 3-betting frequency was ginormous, and definitely represents a super-light range, he didn't actually showdown a lot of complete garbage hands. There was a T9o or something, which is definitely a bit "out of order", but still reasonable "semi-bluffing" 3-bet hand, given that the dynamic of the match was on his side. Also, his strategy worked just the way he probably intended. You folded a lot of flops and second barrels, obviously because you didn't connect well and he did have the initiative, so it was probably just re-inforcing this strategy.

It's difficult to pin-point how much of this was because of the run of cards, but it was a good demonstration of the power of relentless aggression, at least with a bit of help with the cards.

What's also interesting that how widely you probed for different exploitative strategies. I guess the other approach is to opt to play kind of like the "game theory optimal" style and trying to identify leaks by directly seeing them and then to pound on them. ("Game theory optimal" doesn't mean fit-or-fold or ABC, by the way, if anyone's wondering. :-) I think you made big swings of strategy, which requires a lot of experience and nerves, but in a sense probably works a bit better. Though not to say that it's easy to play game theory optimal style either.

Hey its the poker after dark guy.
look forward to watching this.

Geez this guy is tough.... wd DD

Very good questions Jarno: On one hand, there were a few things I did that were for the purposes of "making a video" that I certainly could have not done. I'll be honest, I have a layout of the different raw "opponent types" I hope to play against in my series, but when I actually get to the tables I have to hope to find those guys. I wanted so much for him to be an "early maniac" and he definitely sort of was, but he wasn't exactly the perfect prototype for it either. My open limping strategy against him was probably slightly less beneficial than it would be against a better example of an early maniac, but I got what I got, and I tried to make it work. This is where actually playing / recording live play you take the good with the bad. I've certainly played better examples of early maniacs but I would have to do it all through the replayer. Next week I think I am going to use the replayer because I recently played a true maniac at 8/16 and its just an excellent display of true maniac situations, one I doubt I could stumble upon again with Camtasia ready to go.

I think this video is pretty cool in that you guys have to this point only seen me play against passive fish, to some extent, and this guy was certainly not that. But (and I'll try to say this tactfully) he was wayyyy overaggressive, more so than is optimal, and despite it being a high variance situation, I felt I had a clear edge, even if I was respectful in my audio commentary. What you saw in the 50 min recording part of the match was him running pretty hot, and me poking around at the best way to counter his interesting and somewhat difficult to deal with style. But for me, mentally, he was nowhere near as challenging as some of the HU specialists I've played at all limits, his hyper aggression was just too much of a leak, and unfortunately it took me another hour after the video was recorded to really start plugging away on him, where I then saw he was quite tilty (which almost everyone is) and I booked a solid win. I would have played him for approximately forever

-DeathDonkey

But (and I'll try to say this tactfully) he was wayyyy overaggressive, more so than is optimal, and despite it being a high variance situation, I felt I had a clear edge, even if I was respectful in my audio commentary. What you saw in the 50 min recording part of the match was him running pretty hot, and me poking around at the best way to counter his interesting and somewhat difficult to deal with style. But for me, mentally, he was nowhere near as challenging as some of the HU specialists I've played at all limits, his hyper aggression was just too much of a leak, and unfortunately it took me another hour after the video was recorded to really start plugging away on him, where I then saw he was quite tilty (which almost everyone is) and I booked a solid win. I would have played him for approximately forever

Yup, that's pretty much what I figured you to think. (Well, I didn't figure the specifics, but that you continued because you knew you had an edge.) But it certainly takes experience and skills to pull that off. I think many players would be in a situation where they themselves would be tilting and trying to get even and ending up losing a ton. (Though I'm not quite sure how good exploiter Ali would have been, but I think with that style he is going to crush anyone who is going on a passive tilt. Avoiding passive maybe one of the most difficult parts of HU for inexperienced players.

I have to say though that I think I heard a little bit of frustration in your voice at times in the video. Not that it deteriorated your game or anything necessarily, but it's nice to hear that you're a human too. ;-)

could u do one where u play a tournament? like just a HUsng 1 table only one opponent type thing. or at least go over what type of adjustments u might make for the sng situations of being shortstacked or bigstacked during one. that would help me cause i play a lot of those. had another question can't remember it though. another great video, was good to see u lose kinda gives some confidence to me seeing that even pros have bad beats and lose sometimes and then to see late than u ended up making a lot off of him was good. awesome vid, 5 stars.

Its not heads up but death donkey has a great video on here of him playing in the WCOOP. It is really a diamond in the ruff as far as vids go on here since it has not got that much exposure.

I play a lot of heads up SnGs so would be interested in DD's take on them as well.

Also, I am light years behind DD, but i made a video in the members video sharing thread of a limit HU SnG if you want to watch it.
http://www.driveway.com/f3d6e5t6o8

By the way, I think that this series gives you all you need to play well in HU SnGs. Just apply all of the same concepts. I think that SnGs and cash games are very similar for limit. Where in NL it is very different as you rarely will see a turn or river as the blinds rise in a SnG. In limit, even when the limits rise, you are almost always playing a hand to showdown so the concepts still pretty much remain the same.

One small thing but obvious thing you can do differently is to be willing to show down really light at the start when the limits are low. The information you gain about the villains play is cheap at this stage. Using this when the limits go up, you will see a nice ROI on the losses from the first couple hands when you win back you losses from 2-3 hands on one hand alone.

Hypnotic gives some pretty good thoughts on HU limit SNGs in his last post. I really really hesitate to do a sit n go vid because its not what I play, I've never played a single HU limit SNG and while I think I could beat the low level ones just due to the opponents being very bad, I wouldn't have the experience or the confidence in my advice to really take this series there. If some of my cash game concepts help you in those SNG's, awesome! But for now, Mano a Mule is a HU LHE cash game series, that's what I play and know how to beat.

And yeah, I was a little frustrated playing him, as anyone would be I suppose, but I think I've tricked you all into thinking there isn't variance in HU LHE from my previous results in these videos, I was only stuck like 30 bb to the guy, that's a drop in the bucket HU vs an aggro opponent.

-DeathDonkey

DD I could not have imagined a better "getting started in HU" series. I've always wanted feedback on your particular HU perspective, particlulary because you have one of the most interesting styles of HU limit play out of all the DC staff. Very good work.

I was wondering if you would consider a spinoff series for later down the road? Possibly where you take a HU noob and sweat him a little bit, sort of in the same vein that Krantz and whitelime took in their last series with danzasmack.

If some of my cash game concepts help you in those SNG's, awesome!

For those people interested in HU on short bankrolls SnGs are great. You can pretty much apply any and all concepts of this series to limit SnGs. As stated before the effective stack sizes in NL play makes HU SnGs and cash games a very different beast as you quickly find that you are playing much shorter stack poker than you would in a typical 100BB stack cash game pretty much eliminating the turn and river play as you will almost always get it all in preflop or on the flop.

Limit is different in that we have effective stacks of 12BB/hand regardless of our actual stack size and as you know in LHE max pots do not really happen all that often. In an SnG (Full Tilt) you start out with 1500 in chips and the blinds are at 30/60 give you 25BB. The play moves pretty fast to be honest. I find that the matches are almost end during the 80/160 level which will give you just over 9 bets if both players still have equal stacks. That is a pretty good size effective stack which allows for close to normal play for limit, where as in the 4th-5th level of a NL match you will likely be open shoving or folding.

Following DeathDonkey's strats for cash games will translate almost 100% to SnGs. His pre-flop play is pretty much optimal for SnGs as the blinds get higher and most players tend to tighten up a bit pre-flop. The only time where it will play much different than a cash game is when the limits get really high (highest I have ever seen them is 120/240), where it will play similar to NL where you are going to be getting it all in pre-flop or on the flop in which case you take a +EV hand, jam it, and hope it win.

Don't let a short bankroll stop you from putting the info in this series to use!

How good are you DD? This guy you played was very good, I think.
This was 100/200 class, dont ya think/?
I also respect that you post loses. Now that I learned how to watch videos, I have 3 pages of notes.
I will try to summarize.
I wrote these real time, before seeing further action.

18:35...If I was backing you, I would give you the $10 to make this river call.
1) some percent we are good.
2) we fold..villain keeps firing thinking we are easy, even calling and losing slows him down.
3) most important...we develope our read more, and early this is important(I learned that from you ...lol)

21:26.. I love this hand!!..Raise for confusion.
31:34..My read of his turn raise is..he is reading your hand as weak and is re-stealing.
I would 3 bet.
32:16..His cards either went dead, or he has changed plan and is now passive.
33:07..Your flop raise must be a high limit bluff which you must explain to me.
33:43..Dont 3 bet the turn, use the same line you used on the bluff he saw, he will remember that and not believe you here or on the river when you raise again. tough beat.
35:11..nice bet on turn
36:25...You c/r semi-bluff a GS. then bet/3bet continue the bluff on the turn.
He will raise his entire range bluffing the king? so you 3 bet.
He caps the turn. check check...he show a 7!!!
This hand is an illustration of the game of "chicken" that goes on in high stakes.
I understand your side of it, but was he trying to get you to fold a 8!!??
or was he 4betting for value, thinking you were on a draw?

At this point in the match, I am thinking Villain may see you as the maniac here.
A late maniac.
41:09...he may have changed lines for aces in this spot, you both changed lines several times.
41:40...I agree with over estimated FE.
....here I am thinking..hasnt villain shown us a way to counter someone who is constantly rasing from the btn?(3 bet them constantly)
43:16...he Misread your hand, and thought you had OC's. When we know, that he knows this(damn I finally got to use 2nd level thinking for real..damn I am good..lol).how do we exploit it?
keep raising?? or c/r the turn??
.....I am thinking at this point in the match...He thinks he has FE vs you. We need to find a place to SD ace or king high.
43:59...more high level changing gears...you both flop a pair...check check!!
44:55...well played, after a tough beat, you dont tilt, man your good.
46:09...you have both gone passive.
50:16..I am yelling at the screen..."cap it , cap it"..he doesn't trust you at all.
villain thinks he has FE on you, and he thinks you make too many moves.
52:11..please call..chance to show him A or K high.
53:10..is this donk any good by villain? I have been donking more myself...it sometimes freezes the PFR'r...but it only works vs a player I can trust...so I dont get his donk here.
580..I'm guessing he is catching. He went passive a few hands ago.
1:01...we still need to call the river more I think. too much call/call/fold

I am glad you came back and won, And I am sorry to hear that he whined about it.
Cause I thought he played well, and was a true test for you, and hell,
I already know your damn good!!

I don't doubt at all that DeathDonkey has an edge vs. Ali, but I was pretty surprised by his play. I listen to him on Poker Road Radio podcast and PAD of course, and he is a really good poker announcer and radio personality, but this proves he can play a bit, too.

For what it's worth I think he only plays limit and HORSE from what he has talked about on poker road. Live he plays a pretty decent size stakes as he was talking about some hands in the 80/160 game during the Bay 101. So yeah, DD has an edge here but we saw that Ali is certainly not a fish.

This episode was a match between two cool guys who are both good at poker.

(Ali's style of play is prolly pretty good with 100% rakeback)

Hi Mickey, Just so you know it would help me a little bit if you noted what my hand was and maybe the flop if its relevant for comments you'd like feedback on - I might recall the hand off memory and its alot easier for me to respond without having to pull up the video and watch at those time markers to remember. Anyway, no, I hope he doesn't see this because I don't want to start any drama, but he was not that good, and neither of us are 100/200 good if we are talking about online. I've never played 100/200 HU online and I know the regulars who sit at those limits on Full Tilt, I don't think I have an edge on any of them and some probably would have an edge on me. I am honest with myself, I think my best quality at poker is my ability to teach it and my all around poker theory which allows me to play many different games proficiently, and some more than proficiently, but while I think I am an experienced heads up player, I am not as much of a HU specialist as many of the HU pros who sit at huge games all day long alone, waiting for a match. Perhaps I am wrong and I could beat some of them, but it doesn't really interest me to play in a spot with such a low edge anyway, there is no chance I am significantly better than any of them (though there is little chance any of them are statistically significantly better than me either imo).

I hope this post doesn't come back to bite me, as I certainly think I'm one of the most qualified to do this series of anyone I've ever seen make a poker video, but I also would feel slimy letting you claim I am better than I am. I'm very comfortable with my relative poker skill, and more prideful in my teaching skill.

Mickey, I'll address your comments directly tomorrow, as I'm almost off to bed and I need to look through the video at the timestamps you mention, but thanks in advance for taking the time to make so many comments and questions.

Hypnotic, yeah all I really know about Ali is seeing him at Commerce one time hanging out with his friend who was playing 100/200 (fish imo) when I was in the game. I'd assume he is a competent player who probably thinks he is better than he is, but then, everyone pretty much does
I will say, again for the sake of honesty and not just to cause drama, when you get to the mid limits, say 15/30 or so online, a player like him would be a pretty bonafied fish.

In the last few episodes of this series I will play some strong players, and maybe we will see the difference. I'll definitely play a couple different winning pros, and see if I can wrangle up someone I'd certainly admit to being my equal or superior, though in my opinion if I play someone better than me there is almost no point in doing the video, because my commentary about strategic adjustments and stuff suffer from the glaring and obvious problem that if he is better than me, I cannot advise a way to beat him, and I highly doubt anyone wants to watch a series where the author talks about "how to lose less when you are the fish" LOL

-DeathDonkey