March 27, 2011
The sinister and clueless villains of 5NL
I must say I played a couple of sit and go's this weekend, won 1 and came 2nd in another. Think that was good for about $9. It is important that you know that.
So recently I have moved up from 2NL to 5NL. I wrote a few posts about what I expected. How I expected the villain's to play better poker. How I expect it to be a technically hard limit to play. I was wrong, very wrong.
In short 5NL players are horrible! I mean 2NL villain's are bad, but perhaps they are learning or playing for fun or whatever reason that might be. 5NL villains are plain horrible. And this is squarely accentuated by the limp callers. When a player limp calls, it really devalues your broadways or your pocket pairs from say 55-TT. Why? Well this is the exact reason:
If we raise a limper (obvs with pos) with AQ and miss the flop, c bet and get called on say a 9K5 rainbow board. What is the villain's range? Same applies if we have 77 on the same board. At 2NL limp callers in my experience will fold around 70% to a c-bet from a re-raise that they have limped called. At 5NL they fold about 40%. That is a massive ~30% difference. So what does this mean?
Well it means we now have a massive hole in our game. See we can try and iso raise the limp caller that does it consistently, but what if we have another 2-3 players at our 6 max table that is the same? That have no pattern, rhyme or reason to when they call or fold to a c-bet? Well our predicament is multiplied by 3. Think about that for a second when playing 6 max.
So what do I see? Basically limp callers, all over the shop, running down their stack to around 50-70 BB, then finally they find the cooler they are looking for, or the massive draw verses an over pair and they double up. Then? Well you do it all over again. Limp call. Call the re-raise. Call or fold to a c-bet? (Just flip a coin for that decision). Run your stack down to 50-70 BB and then find your cooler, or slow play your KK and double up. Then what? Rinse and repeat. Again and Again and again....
Einstein said doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the sign of insanity. I am yet to work out though, whether 5NL players do expect any else? Lol
So I found myself 3 betting, not light, but wider than I had at 2NL. To polarized the villain's range. Not sure this is right, but seems right. So did it work? Well yes. And no. Basically my ev for the week should have been $10 or 2 BI's for 5NL. Not bad. I would be happy with that. In reality? I lost 8BI's for the week ($40). Most of this weekend I must admit, but non less it all counts for the week.
So I am really happy with the way I adjusted to the "different" villian's at 5NL. I think I played really well this week. Just a little confused about the variance I have experienced. Do I need to play tighter? Then I am not learning? Not getting better? Not enjoying it?
The up shot of it all? Next week it is back to 2NL. I have less than 20 BI's for 5NL now :( So off to 2NL I go to think things over and hopefully get my roll back to a good size for 5NL. ( I think you need about 24 BI's for 5NL - so that is what I'll aim for)
I would love to hear any of your thoughts. Sorry this is not a positive update. I wished it was. I think variance had it's way with me this week. So back to 2NL, where we re-group, we get stronger. And we come back better for 5NL. That I promise!
We have 44BI's for 2NL. (19 for 5NL)
This weekend's graph:
This week's graph:
6 Comments:
AshThePro posted on March 28, 2011 at 02:05 AM
Good discipline jumping back down to 2NL.
While it is good to see that you're analyzing the game like you are I don't think you should jump to the conclusions you have on such a limited sample size. I don't really believe their is that big of a difference, if Any, at 2NL vs 5NL. If there is it should only be by a few %.
Of course I could be wrong. I would suggest doing a lit more investigating.
CaptainScope posted on March 28, 2011 at 13:31 PM
Hey Ashe... Good to hear from you!
Good call on the sample size - I guess a bigger sample will reveal more to me. At the moment that is what it feels like. Perhaps my variance had something to do with it?
Anyways need to grind back to 24 or 25 BI's for 5NL and then I'll take another shot. Will defo be thinking about what I have experienced whilst back at 2NL.
How are things for you? Hope all is well.
emopants posted on March 30, 2011 at 14:25 PM
When moving up in stakes one of the most important things to do is tighten up! Especially because you don't know what to expect moving forward (though Ashe is right there's hardly a difference between 2 and 5 nl). If you tighten up you can get a good feel for what to expect.
I tried my hand at 2nl yesterday and today (and lost a good 14 bucks in the process) But I'll have to say it was variance as well, as I tightened up soo much more than usual (not playing anything below PP's and TT+) and yet still managed to lose to 72o w/ AJ on the button.
Tightening up when you move up to new stakes will keep you from losing all of those buyins you worked so hard to grind up. (unless you're me and lose to 72o..)
scott405 posted on March 31, 2011 at 05:19 AM
emopants: you lost 14 bucks at 2Nl? thats some awful luck ive played 60K hands of 2NL and havent lost that much in 2 days. Ive had a couple minus 3 buyin sessions tho.
I actually wouldnt change your game much just do whats been winning you money and adjust as needed.
I just cashed out most of my roll due to life issues but left enough to play 2NL i was playing 10NL and HUSNG. Played almost 3k hands at 2NL the last 2 days and boy is it fun lol. Kinda enjoying grinding my roll back up at 2NL again.
scott405 posted on March 31, 2011 at 05:24 AM
BTW there is a slight difference in competition in my humble opinion at 5NL compared to 2NL but still absolutely zero need to change your game. Same concepts still apply. Its all mental. I can relate because i have the same issues and actually have a TERRIBLE WR at 5NL right now.
scott405 posted on March 31, 2011 at 05:28 AM
one last thing...main differences ive noticed at 5NL and especially 10NL is players wont stack off with garbage like you see a lot at 2NL. If their in the hand at showdown they will usually have something decent and wont call all ins with middle pair like you see at 2NL.
Basically its a little tougher to win stacks and easier to get stacked.
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