March 17, 2011

2 Hands at 2NL - that I need you DC members to discuss with me!

The point of this blog post is to talk about 2NL villains / opponents how their play effects ours. Yesterday I wrote how when moving up I intend to adjust to 5NL players and their percieved range and how they play their range in certain spots. I have written about 2NL players extremely wide range in the past and how we often see them take unprofitable lines and how this makes 2NL a somewhat tricky limit to navigate through. I realized that tonight I took an unprofitable line as I was somewhat baffled by the villain's line (In hand 1). I also made a snap call in hindsight which might have been a coin flip or a way behind spot. I would love for other DC members to comments on my thought process in each hand and see if we can create a disucussion about the "special" types of opponents we encounter at 2NL.

Hand 1

Poker Stars $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players - View hand 1236707

DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $6.58
SB: $4.85
Hero (BB): $2.36
CO: $3.38

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with J of spades J of hearts
2 folds, SB raises to $0.08, Hero calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.16) 9 of clubs 8 of clubs 8 of hearts(2 players)
SB bets $0.12, Hero calls $0.12

Turn: ($0.40) 3 of diamonds(2 players)
SB bets $0.26, Hero calls $0.26

River: ($0.92) 3 of clubs(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Final Pot: $0.92
SB shows 4 of hearts 3 of hearts (a full house, Threes full of Eights)
Hero mucks J of spades J of hearts
SB wins $0.88
(Rake: $0.04)

So my thought process was this:

Pre Flop

I should be 3 betting this for value. However due to the fact the villain raised to 4x I only flatted as this is percieved strength at 2NL, often villains will just limp in a blind vs blind situation. My 1st mistake in this hand. Due to his 4x - range I think we can put him on QQ+, AK, AQ, Aj, KQ and pocket pairs 55 to TT. 

Flop

The villain leads into us with an almost PSB OTF. This again is a sign of massive strength at 2NL, usually it would be checked. At this point I am putting him on a range of 99, An Axcc FD and QQ+ So though with the range I am putting us on he has us crushed, also cannot dismissed random air, plus it is blind vs blind and it is 2NL so his range can be wide here. Thus my problem though I think I am beat I don't feel I can lay it down yet. 

Turn

Now the villain bets a little over half pot. Which makes me think he perhaps an over pair and is worried about the flush. I think this is a bet sizing tell. I did consider raising here all in but just felt I am only ever getting called by better? Though I can get value from FD, this of course contradicts my read. I would expect an over pair to bet a little more to protect from the flush, so I am finding it hard now to assign a range. I think my hand might be good and perhaps I could bet the river if the flush completes and get some folds from some overs? Specifically Queens? My call in conclusion on the turn SUCKS!

River

Villain checks the river and I am like WTF is happening here? I should be check raising that card after he bet, but he checked? If I bet do I get folds from overs less then TTs? No probably not? So I can't rep a flush. Has the river completed the villain's flush? WTF? I should be able to value bet this river but I am confused by this hand so much? So I check.

Would we ever put the villain on the hand he had? Again the villain wanted to c/r the river no doubt and lost a lot of value by not doing so, as my line looks like a flush. 

SO how can I make better reads in this hand?

Hand 2:


Poker Stars $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 1236723
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $2.22
BB: $1.94
UTG: $3.22
CO: $1.96
Hero (BTN): $2.00

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BTN with J of clubs J of spades
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, 1 fold, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.17) K of clubs Q of spades J of hearts(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.12, BB calls $0.12

Turn: ($0.41) 2 of clubs(2 players)
BB bets $1.74 all in, Hero calls $1.74

River: ($3.89) 2 of spades(2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $3.89
BB shows A of diamonds 5 of clubs (a pair of Deuces)
Hero shows J of clubs J of spades (a full house, Jacks full of Deuces)
Hero wins $3.70
(Rake: $0.19)

Pre Flop

Raising 4x for vlaue, seems reasonable? At 2NL there is no real need to have BTN size raises I feel, might be wrong?

Flop

So I flop bottom set, now that flop should also hit the villain's calling range from the blind. So I bet for value and get called. So far so good?

Turn

In game I snapped this off like lighting. But lets evaluate this. The villain could have flopped a straight here. In that case we have 34% equity not great. The villain could have 2 pair then we have 80% equity to win the hand. This is good. However the villain could have Axcc for a straight and FD and then we still have 85% equity to win the hand. Point being what is the villain jamming here? Is it the nuts a straight more often than 2 pair, or a straight and flush draw. It is 2NL - I rarely see the villain jam like this on a straight draw on it's own.

So when the villain turns over his hand it is a fist pump right? But with regards to the previous hand and this - we can make this call for sure and quickly but can we snap it off as quick as humanly possible and feel good about it, considering ranges are so wide and wierdly played?

Would love to hear your thoughts, DC community on the 2 hands individually and as a whole! Please tell me what you think!

For those that care we are @62 BI's for 2NL

Posted By CaptainScope at 11:00 PM

2 Comments

Tags: ranges 2NL hand histories villains discussion points DC community

2 Comments:

richbrown posted on March 18, 2011 at 09:10 AM

039_1071_arnold-schwarzenegger-posters

Hand 1:

some stats or reads would be nice.

In general if he seems slightly fishy i am 3bet/folding? every time bvb.

If he seems reg Its 50/50 and depends a bit ingeneral I'd flat it a lot to keep his range wide.

as played i think you can raise this flop and get called by many draws and 9x hands.

turn as played you can make a small raise or you can flat if you think he is a barreling monkey type of guy. thing is there are river cards will either kill your action or give him a better hand but its not to bad.

River i don't mind checking and if you bet you should bet small to get value from 9x or A hi hands. problem is you can get check raised if he thinks you are making a small bet bluff and now you will not know what to do. Hence why i dont mind checking if thats the case.

Hand 2:

Its fine to raise big with good hands if players are not paying attention.

I think your cbet can be made larger. if he connects with this flop he is at least always calling one bet even if you bet pot. if he doesnt he is usually c/f anyway.

when he donk bet shoves the turn it is interesting but his range is wider then you think, not just nuts. Most fish that flop the nuts will slow play to the river so that can discount straights a little bit. There are many many combos of Pair + draws he can have. He can do this with: KQ KJ JQ JT TQ AJ AQ TT Tx.

Those are a lot of combos! and i have seen this more with these types of hands, they figure even if they get called they have equity, it makes the hand easy to play for them and they have more fold equity.

So if you factor in a possibly large range of combo draws and gshots + pairs. you still have ok equity even if he has AT 9T so you just have to call with a set here. Its more interesting if you have 2 pair but i think id call still.


CaptainScope posted on March 18, 2011 at 13:12 PM

Sideshow_bob_by_spacecoyote

Thanks for the comments Rich. I think I can't really disagree with your thought processes. All pretty solid to me.

I was wondering if you had any thoughts on the 2 hands combined and how they relate to the player pool as a whole at 2NL. I posted these 2 hands together to specifically highlight the weird and varied way opponents at 2NL and the micros in general play hands and the lines they take.

When trying to formulate reads against players often I find myself assigning a style to a player only to see him play a hand that completely blows apart my read I had for him. (The player in hand 1 had 232 BB and seemed decent - the player in hand 2 had 100 BB and jammed the turn with a 4 outer he too seemed OK).

I think this volatile and irrational behaviour from opponents can make 2NL really difficult and I would love to hear your thoughts on this? It can leave us playing a weak -passive or weak-tight style of poker that will have to evolve quite a bit as we move up limits. Which is cool - but I think we have to realize that what we play at 2NL will be different quite a bit to 25NL and beyond, fundamentally.

Also I don't use a HUD at the moment so no stats - as I have found myself making plays on stats that are not accurate enough (not a big enough sample on most players) to be profitable. Since I have turned off the HUD I have won consistently at 2NL, cannot think that is a coincidence? Any thoughts on this too?

Cheers


 

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CaptainScope