October 13, 2012

Thoughts on Poker Coaching

I'm writing this as a coach and video producer. 

I think the state of the game has led to a dangerous climate for aspiring poker professionals. I take my duties as a coach and video producer very seriously. I've only coached six students in 4 years (two of them are real life friends) and all of them were after getting to know the player as a person. I still Skype with all of my students frequently and feel genuine compassion toward them.

I'm not saying this to project a holier than thou attitude. But I want to contrast this with a lot of dirty behavior I see sprouting up. In general, I think a coach should charge very close to his hourly from playing. It's simply not fair to charge $400/hour when your expected hourly from playing is $50. You can justify a slight premium because coaching is very taxing and not very fun, but any huge gaps are very improper, in my opinion.

Due to the nature of NLHE, SNG's and Cash games are drying up. I truly think MTT's are the last bastion left for large winrates (that's a discussion for another day). In response to this, there are numerous coaches coming out of the woodwork who no longer beat the game. I'm not as familiar with cash game coaches (though I've read about each of the scandals and know the state of HSNL isn't great). But I am very, very familiar with tournament and SNG regulars at high buy-in levels.

of spadesof spadesof spadesof heartsof heartsof heartsof diamondsof diamondsof diamondsof clubsof clubsof clubsof spadesof spadesof spadesof heartsof heartsof heartsof diamondsof diamondsof diamondsof clubsof clubsof clubsof spadesof spadesof spadesof heartsof heartsof heartsof diamondsof diamondsof diamondsof clubsof clubsof clubs   

Many of the coaching listings on the 2+2 forums and other sites are predatory. I know the regulars and they're just not that good any more. I think deep within their heart of hearts, they know this. So they try to hit every avenue possible (producing videos for a training site, private coaching, and producing videos in conjunction with a site such as YourDoom or DailyVariance) to grab more money.

Unfortunately, students in search of good coaching are frequently unaware of this. In sports betting, there's a reason why most of the "free pick" sites are fradulent. If you really had a golden goose, would you need to sell it at $299? The idea is preposterous. Similarly, if you really beat hyper turbos, or heads up, or 6-max SNG's, or anything, for 6 figures a year, would you really have the time to coach 20 students? No. The very fact these coaches are promoting their services so heavily implies they find more +hourly from coaching than from playing. 

Even more disturbing, there is also an alarming trend of "poker entrepreneurs" who don't beat the games but are very skilled at marketing themselves. I was friendly with a published author,Tony Guerrera, who showed me a good example of how to act. Tony never pretended to be a high stakes MTT crusher and acknowledged some of his limitations when working with me. Even then, his work on the math side was extremely useful. I'm sure there are numerous examples of analysts such as this who can justify their hourly coaching rate or book deal.

For every Tony Guerrera, there are 20 charlatans. There are a number of famous authors who have refused to release their results. There seems to be an e-book released every few weeks by a scummy low-stakes author entitled "Crushing X Game" or "Smash the Regulars." Considering the authors play a $10 ABI, these titles are absurd and fradulent. I've read many of the arguments on the 2+2 forums about the merits of their books and all that. I agree the content can be useful. But I think the title is predatory and of an infomercial-like nature. As poker players, you never really want to be compared to an infomercial or MLM. Unless your goal is to book a quick buck.

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I'd like to give out some good advice to players in search of coaching:

1) Coaching is kind of the final frontier. You should only hire a coach to take the next level once the steps below don't work. The first step, for basic players, would be to read the best books on the game you are trying to play. Books are very good for imparting basics in a smooth progression (otherwise they wouldn't be published).

2. Once you get more advanced, you should subscribe to training sites and develop a very sound theory-base. There are many sites out there that provide very high quality videos. In general, you shouldn't subscribe to a site to watch every video. You should target the best players in the game and try to learn from their thought processes. Thankfully, for MTT's and SNG's, there are good pros working for almost every site. Incidentally, DeucesCracked is, in my biased opinion, the best site by far due to no DRM (so you can speed up the videos), no sign up fee, and one of the best rosters.

3. Only when you have learned a lot from videos, and still don't understand concepts, should you turn to a coach. You should only seek coaches who aren't throwing themselves at you. In general, the more exposure a coach has, the more his hourly from playing has dropped. Coaching is very variance-free income so a lot of mediocre players become attracted to it.

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So I have some personal updates.

- I moved to 49th in the PocketFives Rankings, meaning I've cracked the top 50 for the first time! Next goal is top 20.

- I'm submitting a sample article to 2+2 Magazine for November. I've always been a big fan of the magazine. I'd like to write about topics relevant to SNG's and MTT's.

- I'm heading to the Asian Poker Championship, run by Pokerstars, in November. I'll be playing the Warmup ($3250 USD buy-in) and the $13000 Main-Event.

Last week's blog had 560 views. This week I'm going to give a 1% sweat in the APOC Warmup for every 1000 views this entry can scrounge up. This % will be rounded so 1560 views= 1.56%. Simply comment on this blog with either your thoughts on poker coaching (am I being too harsh) or a suggestion for an article you'd like to see.

September Results: (Haven't figured out a way to set up a global alias and I only play Sundays on non-Stars sites now):


User Uploaded Image

 

Posted By YugiohPro at 09:05 AM

72 Comments

Tags: coaching

72 Comments:

QED42 posted on October 13, 2012 at 12:56 PM

Well

One thing I've never seen is any advise for people looking for coaches on what part of your bank roll you should look to spend on coaching.

For example if we have a 30 buy in roll for our current stake what sort of budget should we have for coaching, does our current win/loss rate affect this and what sort of improvement in this should we look for to make coaching a worth while investment?


SpewKid posted on October 13, 2012 at 19:18 PM

Vincent_willem_van_gogh_015

Are there a lot of people who charge more for coaching than they could make by actually playing? It always used to be the other way round. People would do it for less because they wanted to have some variance-free income and they felt that coaching was a good way to question and improve their own game.
Don't people want to see someone's results before they pay for coaching? I don't understand how these coaches can pull it off.


kennycalhoo posted on October 15, 2012 at 11:50 AM

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Thanks for the blog on coaching. I would argue, however, that some people respond better to individual attention, having more of a give and take with a coach, than they do with videos, or from a book.

I also wouldn't mind an article about staking/coaching agreements and what to expect from them.


Zellus posted on October 15, 2012 at 13:16 PM

22155_264258673624_3285936_n

Really interesting topic. I like the notion that coaching should be used as a last resort. I've only ever heard positives associated with it but its interesting to hear that there are so many hidden sides as well... I would also like to know what % of your bankroll should be given for coaching. Also grats on P5s top 50!


BaseMetal posted on October 15, 2012 at 17:38 PM

Sputnik

One tournament subject that I haven't seen covered much is how to handle draws at various stages. There should be plenty of material available eg, versus different player types, position, number of opponents, weak or strong draws and how to defend against them with optimal play.


improva posted on October 15, 2012 at 18:59 PM

Improva.avatar

The price of a service depends mostly one thing: The perceived value you deliver to the customer

If there is a huge gab between perceived value and the actual value you will get a bad reputation.

It is not really relevant how much money you could have made doing something else. Remember that very few people can grind all the time and most people need some kind of contact with the outside world.

I don't think it is a secret that video producers get paid a fixed amount per video. That may seem like a good idea - but I think it has some implications. One of them is that most of the videos are a combination of advertising and information. Another is that a coach that already has all the students he wants has no reason to make videos.
I would not be surprised if the video sites change their business model. I think they have to if the intention is that the videos are to be the main source of information.

I have watched most NLHE videos on DC, Leggo and BF and I think there are maybe 10-20 videos I would recommend.

@Basemetal: I understand why you ask the question. You have to look at the entire range you have in that spot and then construct your range in such a way that your opponent has a hard time figuring out what to do with his weak hands.








DwelF posted on October 15, 2012 at 19:58 PM

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but one of the issues improva is that actual value in poker is:

A) Hardly measurable
B) Only relevant over a longer timeframe

So to expect customers to make an accurate cost/value analysis is a utopia. So there is some responsibility for the coaches to avoid abuse by being more honest about 'actual value'(aka winrates and other things).

If people can't show how there rates are build up thats just a clear sign its probably not very accurate.


improva posted on October 15, 2012 at 22:45 PM

Improva.avatar

The students should be able to judge if they learned something or not.

I normally have a trial session with potential students. If they liked it and I enjoyed teaching them then it was the first session. If either is not true then the session was free of charge and I will suggest a different coach.

A good coach should be able to teach you more in 3 coaching sessions than you have learned in the last 3 months watching videos and if you apply it correctly when you play there is a very good change that your win-rate goes up.


Ass Get to Jigglin posted on October 17, 2012 at 01:09 AM

Big_l

Improva - "I have watched most NLHE videos on DC, Leggo and BF and I think there are maybe 10-20 videos I would recommend"

Can you name specifically which videos you would recommend?


n3kt posted on October 17, 2012 at 05:39 AM

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What do you estimate your winning hourly rate is for tournament? It's interesting to see that you think that tournament is the only thing left for large winrates. A decent midstakes reg can probably make $100-$150/hr given if he multitables, do you think the hourly rates for tournaments are higher/lower than that??


AdamHendrix posted on October 17, 2012 at 14:22 PM

Bangthistwins

Very interesting, I have just taken up a coach this last week. Although, we are not in real life friends he has given me a few free sweat sessions. I was wondering what you charge and limits you coach?


YugiohPro posted on October 19, 2012 at 04:52 AM

Jjyykk_picture

I wish I could quote comments on this blog.

QED42, "One thing I've never seen is any advise for people looking for coaches on what part of your bank roll you should look to spend on coaching. "

I'm assuming people at this level of 30 buy-ins haven't reached the type of game where coaching would matter. I think a good coach's hourly is too high to be affordable for 30 BI players. That's why I recommend watching a lot of videos first.

Anytime I take a new student, I get uncomfortable when they allot too much of their bankroll to my coaching.
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Spewkid: Yes. And lately they work on e-books or seminars so that they get multiple people paying a fee per hour. Leading to an hourly grossly exceeding their playing time.
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kennycalhoo: Definitely agree with you and improva's point that a good coach will teach you more than you can learn on your own.


ChaJin posted on October 20, 2012 at 18:08 PM

Ifang

I am a student of the game. I am trying to learn as much as I can and someday if I can afford it I would love to get a coach. Unfortunately for me right now I can only afford 1 buy in a month because my day job is not very profitable. On the plus side it gives me a ton of time to study which is what I am doing now. I worry about the state of poker because it is a game I enjoy a lot and I want to see it grow. Obviously black friday hurt pokers image and turned off a lot of new players but I hope, at least for my lifetime, people keep playing. Right now i am trying to master hold em but I would love to play all the games. I just dont want to start learning until I feel I have this one down. I want there to be good coaches out there when I can finally afford to get one.


YugiohPro posted on October 24, 2012 at 02:35 AM

Jjyykk_picture

Zellus: "I like the notion that coaching should be used as a last resort. I've only ever heard positives associated with it but its interesting to hear that there are so many hidden sides as well... I would also like to know what % of your bankroll should be given for coaching."

I agree with your sentiment but don't like the "last resort" wording. I think coaching should be used as a supplement to take you to a higher ground once you've exhausted cheaper resources yourself. As for bankroll, I have never hired a coach at full market value and I've always been uncomfortable with paying large chunks of my bankroll for coaching. So maybe 1-2% or something.

A good coach is really priceless though, especially in something repetitive like cash or SNG's. Fixing a few leaks can lead to five-figure differences over a year, or six-figure differences over a career.
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BaseMetal: "One tournament subject that I haven't seen covered much is how to handle draws at various stages."

That sounds like a good concept for a 2+2 article.
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improva: You make a bunch of strong points I agree with. I think the issue I have is when coaches (who probably know their actual instructional value isn't high because they aren't very good at poker) focus on increasing their perceived value in a predatory way. Most poker novices aren't aware of gaps in logic when coaches start spitting hot poker jargon at them.

I think a few of these people look to monetize from coaching first and neglect playing entirely. But I can tell from a lot of their styles (I have a lot of close friends in Multi-Level Marketing) that they are using a scummy hybrid of MLM techniques + internet newsletter type stuff. I think that makes things look worse for the honest coaches out there.


YugiohPro posted on October 31, 2012 at 01:52 AM

Jjyykk_picture

I currently don't coach but my rate would be $180/hr.

I didn't mean to say tournament players make higher hourly's than cash players. I meant to say the games are easier to beat and not drying up due to factors such as botting, bum-hunting, short-stacking, etc.

We almost hit 1k views on this entry! I'm going to give out a 1% sweat in the APOC Warmup to one commentor here and on the other What a Weekend! post. The buy-in is about 4k so the 1% is probably worth $50 or so, but uncapped!


pbaek posted on November 02, 2012 at 21:58 PM

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Very good blog post YugiohPro.

"Most poker novices aren't aware of gaps in logic when coaches start spitting hot poker jargon at them."

I think this is a key point. Obviously you should always be critical and question the logic in what you see in a video, read on the forums or hear from a coach but as a novice you need to be able - at least to some extent - to have faith in the merits of what a coach or video instructor tells you.

A certain move might make perfect sense from a logical point of view but then turn out to be -EV when tested imperically. In a 45 minute videos there will be countless spots like this or a lot of general postulates the instructor might put out there and if you were to test every single statement imperically it would take a week to get through a single video.

My own solution generally is to only watch videos from instructors who have proven they beat the games significantly and that the results are recent. Also the results need to come from an online tracking site since anyone can doctor a PT or HEM database by simply deleting some of the worst hands or in the case og sngs and mtts - entire games.

I am always extremely sceptical of any coach blocking his/her stats on sharkscope for instance. I have never really bought into the excuse that stats are blocked to prevent other players gaining info about your game or not to discourage action from fish. I have seen hu sng coaches use this reasoning but it makes no sense. Fish generally would not even use Sharksope and even more importantly a very good Sharkscope profile will make other good players less likely to sit you.

Like you say: The harder games get and as achievable win rates decrease the more questionable coaches and video instructors there will be to look out for.

I hope this made sense:-)

Peter


CGrinder posted on November 05, 2012 at 03:57 AM

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This is a very pertinent issue for me. I have been debating the idea of coaching for quite some time, there are only a few coaches whose style really appealed to me; and even fewer had rates that I could come to terms with. I am a part-time player, but I have seen my progress make large strides in '12. I have to say that I could not agree with you more, and in reality the abundance of coaches has only made me more reluctant to the idea; because the implication is clearly that coaching, not playing is more worth they're time. Your time a dedication to your training videos shows, I float around to various trainers' videos and I find myself often referring to yours as a constant source of quality raw assessment. Sprained ankles suck something fierce though, sounds like a bit of the run bads in your travel plans. Pedro P. probably doesn't get much respect around the office,,,or at the pad! lol


BEM*91 posted on November 09, 2012 at 20:11 PM

Frog

Great Post! That reminds me of a crazy story that happened at pokerstrategy.
There was a guy who was making videos up to NL1k and coaching people for over 600$/h for a very long time. Everyone was talking that he's one of the best players and he's just crushing the games - in real he just couldn't beat NL100. He just was very talented in selling himself, but his career failed when one of the Highstakes players saw gaps in his logic and started to ask questions. That just shows how careful we need to be when choosing a poker coach.


shuttle posted on November 17, 2012 at 09:58 AM

Juliaslice_1k

@BEM, who was that?


BEM*91 posted on November 18, 2012 at 19:03 PM

Frog

@shuttle, his nickname was "Sapheal". Type "truth about sapheal" in google and you should find a whole topic about him :)


18orbetter posted on November 20, 2012 at 19:53 PM

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Really really great post man. I agree with most of what you wrote, and I'm really happy it's not just me, who realises that from the inside. However, the main question remains - what can we, aware coaches/players do to stop that?

I've been a LHE coach for one of PS's small languages for 1.5 years, I've just quit my job a couple of weeks ago exactly because of these bad coaches and also the tremendous amount of bad information that were provided by the site. I believe I created up-to-date, quality content, but that was worth close to nothing, because other coaches on the site spread outdated, fundamentally wrong information. But obviously you can't openly say these coaches or articles are bad, cause that's against site policy, and when I mention it internally, they just don't give a damn.

I'd really like to hear your opinion on what you think could be done for the users, and against the bad coaches.

@BEM: you know what's the funny part? Saphael worked as part of the Central Educational Team.:D He fooled the so-called experts too. For everyone reading this, that story is awfully funny, check it out IMO.


inavacuum posted on November 23, 2012 at 14:13 PM

L_00778914

Really great post that I hope DC members take heed of. I don't necessarily agree that coaching should be a last resort, but it certainly shouldn't be the first step in the current climate. But I agree that there's a huge problem with scam coaches and sadly they infest every corner of the poker community. The biggest charlatans to avoid are those with ebooks, tons of forum posts, few to no videos and definitely no trackable results. You can easily spot these con artists by looking at all the double-speak they use in almost every post they make. It's pathetic and just plain sad how cretinous these individuals are.

The amount of times my students have been swindled by a former coach is disappointing. If I could dispense one piece to advice to those looking for coaching it would be to avoid the career coaches. It's plainly obvious who they are. Poker coaching is not and will never be a genuine career. If you're receiving genuine coaching the cost will be somewhere approximate to the coaches earn rate and the coach will not blindly take you on. Genuine coaches reject A LOT of potential students. Don't take coaching from any coach who won't share results with you and show you that they have access to the account they're showing you. This doesn't solve determined scammers of course, but it at least makes it slightly harder.


B-rye88 posted on November 24, 2012 at 06:17 AM

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Lol @ inavacuum.

That post could really, really easily apply to improva on this site :D.

I definitely, definitely don't think it at all does, it's just funny :P


Coacaza posted on November 25, 2012 at 00:49 AM

Banana

A coach that has more than 3-4 students at any given time is a scammer.
Think about it! If one coach has more studends when will he have the time to:
1. play
2. improve HIS game, stay up to date with latest poker news
3. get to know a student's game well enough to know what leaks to plug or HOW to plug those leaks - I'm hopping he's not charging for the time he spent getting to know the student - because if he does that he's a scammer
4. prepare the next lesson for each individual student
5. have a life


Nizel13 posted on December 02, 2012 at 03:30 AM

New 085

YuigohPro I've watched a lot of your videos and tried to message you to get coaching from you. I feel like I have a good understanding of the concepts but I would just like a few tweaks here and there to crush the low-mid stakes MTT's. I've been railing you in a lot of tourney's too. If you feel like you would like to have a great student like me who's willing to learn and improve and put a lot of work in, then i'm your man. From Neil


YugiohPro posted on December 04, 2012 at 04:21 AM

Jjyykk_picture



Peter: Agree. I think coaches who block their stats put up immediate red flags. I can think of a number of famous MTT/SNG examples. Another problem with MTT coaches is they can just say it's variance. Which is dumb.
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CGrinder: I appreciate the vote of confidence. I do work hard to make sure my content is good and would rather sit out a season than put out bad stuff.
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BEM*91: I just Googled that. That's a sick story :(. I think there are other stories like that though. Girah, Jason Ho, and others. Poker is a fertile place for stuff like this to happen though.
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18orbetter: Agree with your sentiments about a bad website drowning out the good content. Although I think all sites have at least one really good instructor in a discipline.

In your position, I would probably jump ship and try to join a training site that I believe in. That's kind of what attracted me to this site. A lot of the top DC names were some of my poker idols when I first started getting better at the game.
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inavacuum: The charlatans with ebooks, websites, and now video series are what inspired me to write this post originally!

Agree with the other thoughts that coaches with more than 3-4 students are not too great (unless they live in the USA and just coach fulltime). I actually only take one student at a time. I look at it like a Sith Lord/Darth thing.


DjuNKeLL posted on December 05, 2012 at 16:25 PM

Sunfromplane

Hmm don't you think a lot of the responsibility lies with the person who searches for a coach?

If you look to improve your game, you always want the best coach that fits your budget. You look to what you want to learn (beating a stake, become better in GTO concept, math, mental, etc.), then you search for a coach who you think can help you.

And then, as Improva does with his coaching, after the first 'session' you can evaluate if you think this coach will indeed get you to that next level. IF not, you simply quit and look for another as it probably only takes one session to find out if someone has more marketing than poker skills.


BABYLON4EVER posted on September 12, 2013 at 06:50 AM

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Nice blog.

What do you think about coaches who play obviously way higher stakes/bigger games than hero (who is paying for the coaching) and how does if affect in your opinion to the actual session. What I mean here is that do you think there might be some spots where you have to level down a lot and by not doing so there might be some missed value spots etc.

Obviously the coach is almost in every case able to beat/crush the lower stakes cash games but do you think that the student and coach should play somewhat on same lever?

Also one thing I've always wanted to ask from a player who is doing coaching sessions:

How low stakes would you be willing to coach regardless the fact you are feeling uncomfortable to coach people who invest too much of their current bankroll?

Thank you in advance!


gsa703 posted on November 17, 2013 at 09:49 AM

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Bump.

I don't play golf, so I could be way wrong, but I am under the impression that Tiger Woods and other high-end pros have coaches, who obv do not make more money on the tour themselves, than their students.

Not sure whether this applies to poker, but the logic has to be that coaching opens a student's eyes to things that experience would only unveil rather slowly, and at a higher out-of-pocket cost than the coaching. That is, it is not the coach's win-rate, it is the student's learn-rate.

FWIW, I was a physics major. The professor I most remember said that he would never win a Nobel, but his dream was that one of his students would.


gsa703 posted on November 17, 2013 at 10:01 AM

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What do good coaches do about bad coaches?

I am not a coach but I have written a lot of computer code. Let me tell you, there are a lot of bad programmers out there.

In my experience, not very much good happens when I tell non-technical people how bad their existing systems are, in terms of the code. The only thing that seems to work is to explain how I am going to make things better, in non-technical ways (ie results rather than means or methods).

And then, of course, I have to deliver. Bottom line? Has to be past projects (resume and referrals) and current work-in-progress (openness and networking). Which requires due diligence on the part of the client. But in my experience, I will always come out ahead of charlatans, but may lose to those who are better than I am. So that's how I set my hourly rate.

Do I want a client who does not perform due diligence?


floptoriver posted on October 23, 2014 at 03:30 AM

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Great article. Keep writing.

As far as poker coaching- I think you are dead on. There is a reason that Phil Ivey isn't doing legitimate coaching. I'm sure he could get a billionaire from china to pay him 100k an hour, and he would probably turn it down. Same with Dwan. Same with all of the greats at their specialty.

I've always watched the trend of the hot author or the hot leaderboard guy, slowly fall off and start popping up ads across the internet- looking to coach xyz, staking offers, etc- the only reason is because it is better money than them playing for it.

GL


phuocnguyen789 posted on September 13, 2017 at 07:45 AM

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Công dụng của nhân sâm sâm kgs đối với sức khỏe con người
Theo Đông y, nhân sâm Bột đông trùng kgs là dược liệu quý hiếm có vị đắng, không độc, có tác dụng đại bổ nguyên khí, giúp bồi bổ sức khỏe Hồng sâm củ tẩm mật ong KGS , nâng cao thể lực cho con người. Khoa học phát triển, các nhà nghiên cứu đã tìm ra những công dụng tốt của nhân sâm với cơ thể. Dưới đây là một số công dụng mà nhân sâm mang đến cho cơ thể.
Tăng cường sức khỏe, Nước hồng sâm hàn quốc KGS bồi bổ cơ thể
Nhờ các thành phần dưỡng chất có giá trị, nhân sâm khi được chế biến thành các món ăn hay thức uống đều có tác dụng bồi bổ cơ thể nhờ cơ chế thúc đẩy các tế bào hoạt động mạnh mẽ hơn,Viên linh chi Hàn Quốc KGS khiến việc ăn uống diễn ra thuận lợi. Đặc biệt sử dụng nhân sâm với những người mới ốm dậy, trẻ em còi xương chậm lớn, suy dinh dưỡng hay những người vừa trải qua phẫu thuật gặp suy nhược lớn là cách thúc đẩy cơ thể hồi phục nhanh chóng, Cao hồng sâm hàn quốc KGS tăng cường sức đề kháng và hạn chế các bệnh tật. Khả năng kích thích tiêu hóa, gia tăng hấp thụ dinh dưỡng của cơ thể cũng được cải thiện khi sử dụng nhân sâm.


leminhtan3 posted on September 14, 2017 at 04:21 AM

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