Call or Fold? Stay or Quit?
tags: tommy angelo elements of poker
Here’s a decision I made in the $10-10-20 no-limit hold’em game at Lucky Chances in the spring, when the minimum buy-in was $2,000. The lineup — what we lovingly call The Breakfast Club — was playing tight and tough, as it so often does. Inevitably, the cards slice deep cuts into some of the stacks, which causes blood to flow, and that gets the chips moving, sometimes, depending on whose nuts get cracked.
When this hand came up, the game was two hours old, and there had been no major wounds. The two biggest pots of the day had been in the $1000-2000 range, and neither of them went to showdown. On this hand, I was under the gun. I opened for $80 and only the button called. The pot was $190. On the flop, I bet $200 and he called. On the turn, I bet $500 and he called. At this point the pot was about $1600. On the river, I checked, and he went all-in for $1600. (I had him covered.)
At this point, his hand was polarized. I knew he either had me beat, or he didn’t. If I called, I would be getting 2-1 on my money which meant that if he had me beat twice as often as he didn’t, then it didn’t matter what I did. And as best as I could figure it, within the image of reality that exists only in my mind, which happens to be the only version of reality I have access to, that was how it was; the EV of calling was the same as the EV of folding.
So, what to do?
Well, that’s an easy one: move to an outer shell of parameters and weigh the decision from there.
My opponent was a player who often plays pretty snug for long stretches, and then, when he plays a big all-in pot, he will sometimes play somewhere between reckless and rukus for a while. And it doesn’t matter if he wins the big pot or loses it. He tends to get spunky either way. And when the spunkiness comes over him, his spunk can cause a few others to spunk it up, and now we’ve got a game. And let’s just say for the sake of parameter thinning that I thought I could rely on myself to be equally steady, win or lose. So now we have determined that after looking at the meta-game, the decision was simple. Call and maybe rev up the game, or fold and keep it the same.
I asked myself: Do I feel like playing? And what kind of game do I feel like playing in? My choices were:
Fold and continue playing in a tough-tight game. (I like tough-tight games during those times when I like that kind of game. It just depends.)
Fold and quit a tough-tight game. (Never a bad idea.)
Call and play in a loose-ish game ahead $2400. (Sometimes I keep playing because I’m ahead, and independent of that, sometimes I keep playing because the game got looser.)
Call and quit a loose-ish game stuck $2400. (Sometimes I quit because I’m stuck, and independent of that, sometimes I quit because the game got looser.)
This was a difficult decision for me at the time, and I took way longer than usual on it. And then a big grin crept over me inside when I realized that the reason I couldn’t attach to one of the options was because I was unattached to all of them. So I pulled out my most trusted scale tipper, my protector, my net. Remember when I said I thought I could count on myself to stay steady if I called this hand, win or lose? Well, that’s not actually true. Usually I can. But sometimes I can’t. And I never really know for sure which way it’s going to be. And even when I am perfectly unflustered by a big pot, it nonetheless increases the probability a little bit that the next big pot might knock me off balance.
I decided to let the first blood spill on someone else’s hand. I decided to wait for a +EV spot to play an all-in pot. And I realized I liked this tough-tight game right now, just the way it is. So I folded and posted my blind.
published Aug 9, 2008 4:44pm by Tommy Angelo, Tommy Angelo
Submit to Digg | Submit to Del.icio.us | Submit to Reddit | Submit to StumbleUpon
"I knew he either had me beat, or he didn’t."
O Rly?
Nice article.
"I knew he either had me beat, or he didn’t."
O Rly?
Ya rly, because his hand was polarised to either the nuts or air.
If you call you get to see his hand which gives you information.
Nice article.
Ya rly, because his hand was polarised to either the nuts or air.
im pretty sure he either has u beat or he doesnt, irrespective of whether or not his range is polarised or not...
dw im just being a smart ass ![]()
Knew the fold was coming before I read the end.
I think I get more tilted by folding and being shown a bluff than by calling and losing in spots like these. I also dislike it when the game is tight and tough. So I probably would have called.
A great read.
I think I get more tilted by folding and being shown a bluff than by calling and losing in spots like these. I also dislike it when the game is tight and tough. So I probably would have called.
This. If it's a cointoss, just call.
I think I get more tilted by folding and being shown a bluff than by calling and losing in spots like these. I also dislike it when the game is tight and tough. So I probably would have called.
You could also fold and quit.
If the ev of calling and folding are the same, isn't your opponent owning you from a game theory point of view and no matter what you do you lose?
If the ev of calling and folding are the same, isn't your opponent owning you from a game theory point of view and no matter what you do you lose?
I don't know. Let's looky...
Is there such a thing as actual EV of a betting option that exists as a precise number that is utterly independent of everyone's estimates of the EV? On this hand, I did not know the EV of my options. (Which is always the case for me.) So all I had to go on was my estimate. And my estimate was that the EV of calling was zero, and that the EV of folding was zero. I do know for certain that there is a significant margin of error in my estimates for plays like this one. I do not now much of the margin of error is due to 1) being owned 2) not being very good at estimating EV 3) the naturally occurring gray area that accompanies EV estimations, especially ones that are close to zero.
Here's your question again:
If the ev of calling and folding are the same, isn't your opponent owning you from a game theory point of view and no matter what you do you lose?
My answer to question one: I don't know.
My answer to question two: If the EV of both options is zero, then no one wins or loses no matter what I do, right?
Tommy
Tommy....
Why do you prefer playing in a tight tough game over a loose one?
Tommy....
Why do you prefer playing in a tight tough game over a loose one?
I didn't mean to say that I prefer a tight tough game over a loose one. What I meant to say was that sometimes I enjoy a tight tough game.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
I agree that actual EV does exist and probably lies to closely favour a call or a fold, and that guesstimating is the only real option we have to work with.
I know little about actual game theory, anything I do know is borrowed from poker books. In this situation however, it sounds like your opponent has employed an optimal bluffing strategy. If he has somehow managed to be bluffing exactly 1/3 of the time whilst offering you 2:1 (which he has actually tried to do <1% of the time), you lose in the long run whether you call or fold. Sklanksy talks about this in Theory of Poker. I think the correct play is to call 1/3 of the time to stop your opponent from profiting from his bluffing strategy.
In any case, it's all very academic and isn't really very useful when it comes to actually playing poker. The metagame implications of your decision are probably more important to the EV for the rest of your session, given that it is so unlikely your opponent is trying to (or succeeding in) employing an optimal bluffing strategy. But, if we want to be anal about it, we must randomly call 1/3 of the time if he is bluffing 1/3 of the time.
