nice article!

women dont tilt they eat chocolate, right

Just as an aside - this was an old blog post that I wrote, and is in no way intended to be the definitive explanation of tilt. It's simply my unsubstantiated* musings on gender differences and possibly hormonal reactions to losing.

*Unsubstantiated, in this case, means an absence of clinical research on this specific topic. However, more general research has been acquired first hand on neurotransmitter circadian rhythms and is currently being conducted on testosterone levels and their contribution to depressive disorders.

women dont tilt they eat chocolate, right

Women play poker?



Actually, I'm not sure whether women tilt more or less than men, considering there are so few women who play poker. In fact, even if I were to converse on an everyday basis with all the women I know on DC, that would bring my sample size to... three (me, Ms.Bungle, and bellatrix). As it is, I can only say that I suffer from winner's tilt and have noticed very little tilt when I lose.

And you're right about the chocolate. But I don't need to tilt for that.

nice article!

+1

And you're right about the chocolate. But I don't need to tilt for that.

+1

I enjoyed your musings, Lysistrata.

So, do women get on tilt or not?

So, do women get on tilt or not?

Sure, I assume that most people don't play their best due to certain emotional states; I don't think that women are immune to tilt. Though I don't necessarily know of a plausible, consistent hormonal reason for women to tilt, doesn't mean the average women won't spaz out and play stupidly after losing a few gigantic pots that she thinks she was entitled to.

Pretty interesting. It would be interesting to monitor testosterone and other hormonal levels in players in real time. I wonder if less tilty players naturally produce more hormones even when running bad or if their hormonal levels are moderated more than other players overall. I also wonder how much conscious ability we have to control these hormones levels.

Do you think poker players will ever get to the point of trying to alter their physiology with pills, medications, etc.? (FWIW, I am in no way advocating that somebody try this; uninformed experimentation with meds tends to lead to very undesirable effects.)

Pretty interesting. It would be interesting to monitor testosterone and other hormonal levels in players in real time. I wonder if less tilty players naturally produce more hormones even when running bad or if their hormonal levels are moderated more than other players overall. I also wonder how much conscious ability we have to control these hormones levels.

Do you think poker players will ever get to the point of trying to alter their physiology with pills, medications, etc.? (FWIW, I am in no way advocating that somebody try this; uninformed experimentation with meds tends to lead to very undesirable effects.)

i know of tons of guys that already use ritalin and things like that to address the ADD/grind factor

Do you think poker players will ever get to the point of trying to alter their physiology with pills, medications, etc.? (FWIW, I am in no way advocating that somebody try this; uninformed experimentation with meds tends to lead to very undesirable effects.)

I think that a big problem in the poker community that hormonal levels are probably already completely wacked out due to poor "sleep hygiene" - a fairly new medical concept that's a very "sexy" research topic. Whether fortunately or unfortunately, there isn't any pill regiment to deal with keeping a good balance of hormone levels. (You could easily take pills and over do it, but that probably wouldn't really help, seeing as how poker players want to concentrate, not run a marathon faster or gain 50 lbs of muscle mass.)

I would assume that the best way to combat the physiological aspect of tilt is to keep a healthy level of testosterone naturally. That would generally involve going back to a cave man lifestyle: getting a lot of exercise, eating a good diet (and I don't mean rabbit food - a certain amount of fat is needed for testerone synthesis) and getting laid.

i know of tons of guys that already use ritalin and things like that to address the ADD/grind factor

Very few people use Ritalin anymore and I'd guess they'd be using the newer brands of ADD/narcolepsy drugs. ADD drugs don't have any/have a negligible effect on hormonal systems. While some drugs do more to address the impulsive aspect of ADD, others are more focused on improving concentration. I could see how some players need to stop habitually hitting a certain button or "just wanting to see" and how others just can't focus on the 24 tables they're playing at. I would also guess that some players are self-medicating and actually have a concentration issue. However, the level of inactivity that many players have coupled with the side effect of high blood pressure could put many "recreational" users on the fast track to a stroke. Those who don't need it may be at higher risk for dependency as well. I mean, it's an amphetamine. It makes your brain spit out a bunch of chemicals, making it work harder to replenish stores. The side of your brain receiving chemicals says, "Hey, stop that!" and starts getting overwhelmed.

Anyway, sorry for the off-topic rant. What I meant to say in relation to this article re: ADD meds is that they don't effect hormonal levels and, in fact, may or may not effect tilt. Because a side effect of ODing on ADD meds is fixation, I'd imagine that a player could get fixated on a bad beat and not be able to get it out of his head, causing her to prolong tilt, but that is truly pure speculation.

i wasn't saying that they *should* be using it, or that it has either positive or deleterious effects - just that i'd heard about it. didn't mean to imply otherwise.

i wasn't saying that they *should* be using it, or that it has either positive or deleterious effects - just that i'd heard about it. didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Oh, lol, I know. I'm just ranting for the average reader who might not know what those effects might be. BBBs are good ones who get fed yummies.

So what is Tilt or let’s really say – ‘WHAT IS ANGER’?

It’s a feeling! A feeling which starts in the gut, the heart, or the head and works its way out to all extremities. So when some guy cuts you off on the freeway and that anger starts to build and we suddenly feel our need to express ourselves we instantly give the one finger salute! But why? We hardly know the person, and since I believe that most people are genuinely good natured; that it was most likely unintentional. So with that said – why do we get angry? Reason: It’s a notion that ‘Something is Unfair’! Somehow it was MY right to be in this lane, or MY right to win that hand. Tilt is nothing more than our feeling that something is unfair and if we can’t control it then we need to focuses our anger on something constructive. I like to offer the idea or working out on a treadmill or in a TILT ROOM like on 2M2MM (Great Idea).

Now for the use of Ritalin, I would strongly recommend getting away from its use. Ritalin changes the chemical makeup and how the brain functions. Yes it has been used to calm kids down, help control ADD/ADHD; but with so many side effects I would offer drug free alternatives such as Neurofeedback. NFB offers many controls for anger, depression, sleep issues, while offering an individual clear focus and increased attention span. Something I personally work with.

Ritalin has several adverse reactions such as: Nervousness, insomnia, hypersensitivity (including skin rash), nausea, headaches, blood pressure, and weight loss. Also there can be some drug dependence when given to emotionally unstable patients. This can lead to chronic abuse leading to various degrees of dependence. Many of the alternative drugs offer similar side effects. If someone is already on it, always consult with your doctor; however I always prefer natural alternatives.

This is way too general to be useful imo.

Even if we could say that men were more tilty than females, I doubt the tendency would occur often enough to be meaningful at a individual, practical, what-would-this-player-do-in-this-spot level. Many of the tendencies you're referring to occur on like a 60-65% level, and if women are less represented in poker, it's entirely likely that many of the women who do play are of the less common variety.

I've seen females tilt. I think often it's expressed in different ways. But it's there.

It's interesting that you mention winner's tilt because that is definitely something I have noticed in women, admittedly more so than standard tilt. Winner's tilt is something I specifically look for and I definitely have seen it in many many females who are up in chips, and then profited from it later on. But to say whether they are more susceptible to it on an individual level than males. Not sure.

wreckoning,

This article is attempting to draw inferences from the findings of scientific studies. And, for what it's worth, these types of studies (or more importantly, the results) have been replicated numerous times and published in peer-reviewed journals. I'm pretty sure the author could cite some if you were interested in reading more on them (presenting a more thorough analysis is clearly beyond the purview of this article).

I do not believe the biological underpinnings of this phenomenon (i.e., testosterone levels in particular) are up for debate. Certainly they cannot be overturned with the type of anecdotal evidence you are presenting. Also where are you getting that "60-65% level" statistic from?

pygmy,

Show me the scientific study which references this:

Women do things like form knitting circles (or younger, sassier ones form "stitch and bitch" groups). They have dinner parties, write emails about personal news, go buy stuff for self-/life-improvement purposes and generally foster relationships that focus on being productive and cooperative.

with a greater than 65% gender correlation. Also, explain to me how this note itself is not anecdotal evidence.

My % given is referencing jungian psychology which notes certain characteristics cited by Lysistrata but assigns the gender correlation as being present, significant, easily duplicated, but no greater than 65%. The usual number given is 60%.

As for studies. What exactly did Lysistrata reference?

In fact, studies show that while both men and women have elevated testosterone levels when they beat someone else in a skill-related challenge, men have elevated testosterone levels whenever they beat someone at any challenge at all. For example, if I tell 2 men to draw a card from an uno deck and the first one to draw a "skip" card wins, the man who draws the skip card first will have increased testosterone and the "loser" will have decreased levels. Women's levels stay the same. Actually, men's testosterone levels increase when they don't even do anything. If their sports team wins, it'll go up.

This story is interesting but it does not allow us to draw any inferences about testosterone levels as they may differ in males or females in regards to poker, because poker *is* a skill related challenge.

I will not show you a study about knitting circles. You are deliberately taking what I said out of context. I was talking about the various studies pertaining to testosterone levels (e.g., drawing Uno cards, watching soccer matches).

Additionally, I never said the author cited any studies. The author referenced several studies and I said the author could probably cite them if you were interested in reading more. Asking me to cite them seems a little bit counterproductive as I did not write the article.

That said, I will ensure that the author sees your comments, but I cannot promise that they will be interested in responding to you.

First and foremost, some readers have taken this post to be a kind of call to arm for a sex war, which was not my intent. The thesis of this post is not "women tilt less than men," "women play better than men," or "men are stupid." The idea behind this post is that readers may find it interesting that there is a possible physiological reason behind tilt.

Secondly, I don't think this article can easily be applied to exploitable play. The only (if any) merit to an article such as this would probably be self-evaluation.

As for references, I'm sure a google search could do the trick if people wanted to learn more. As stated in a previous comment, this was a "talk out loud" kind of post, while thinking about my current research on testosterone levels and emotional states.

@wreckoning: I totally agree this post is just that - a post. I understand and regret that you found it to be too general to help your game. (I only disagree with the gender correlation stats because Jung is a joke, imo. Thanks you, Jung, for single-handedly deterring addiction medicine for decades.) You are 100% correct in your observations and hope that the post I wrote leads you to you find the data you're looking for (if you're looking).

Similarly, if I blew up another woman's spaceship, they'd keep right on chatting and would silently think I was weird. And even if I explained that there's a whole community of people who would find it hilarious, I think that because this game has no basis in reality and is essentially a competitive activity in which the only thing it produces is bragging rights, the average woman would just shrug.

A) Epic.
2) Pretty sure we can use this as evidence that men are, in fact, stupid.

,
Rob

A) Epic.
2) Pretty sure we can use this as evidence that men are, in fact, stupid.

,
Rob

ZOMG - ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE!!!!!

A) Epic.
2) Pretty sure we can use this as evidence that men are, in fact, stupid.

,
Rob

Says Mr. "FLATBARREL MY DOJO!!"

** Real Women vs. Real Men **

Theres some stuff on my mind,
Can only get it out with a pen,
Theres some differances in life
Between the ladies in men

When I break it down to you,
Please dont take it to the heart,
Im just gon settle out this score
And break it down on my chart.

When A woman loves a man
You could see it in her eyes,
When A man loves a woman,
He just feeds her with his lies

When a Woman finds him cheatin,
She breaks down and cries,
When the man starts to explain,
He tells her he doesnt know why.

When a woman is fed up,
She starts to flee to another,
When the man is broken down,
He starts to plea to his mother.

A real woman wont creep,
Even if her soul his beat,
A real man wouldnt be cheap,
And hurt a beautiful woman so sweet.

A real woman isnt loose,
You are not supposed to make love unless its love
But its a shame shes a addict,
And a bad man's her favorite drug.

A real man is a prize,
Were not as rare as you conceive
"All men our dogs?"
Thats really unfair for you to believe.

A key to a womans heart
Is through love and affection
A key to a mans soul
Is 20 minutes of erections

How to keep a good man
Show your true colors and dignity
He'll take you on a road to his heart
And walk you through his life vividly

Real woman express themselves
With proper attitude and style
A real woman never stomps and curses
Stuck in the process as a child

A real man disagrees
But never attempts to rasie a fist
A great man never throws his bows
Every lil minute he's heated

A real woman is herself
Shes never infatuated with present trends
Her main priority is success
Shes glad she made it with her friends

A real man's a real father
He never lookin back at his Ex,
He runs a bath for his wife
And thinks of a name for new life he expects

Real woman have faith
A real man follows his savior
There different aspects on life
On Men and Womans behavior

I am surprised that someone who does research is so quick to make such overreaching generalizations. One of the first things I learned as an academic writer was too give specific examples that I could back up. I know that a blog is not held to the same standards as academic writing, but I still try to be careful if my generalizations might reinforce negative stereotypes, as many of the ones you use in this piece do. And if you were just thinking out loud, then I'd maybe reconsider brainstorming in a place where lots of people will read what you write. You are right in that there are so few of us women out here in the poker community, which means that what we say is heard more loudly.

I'm not even going to get into the sexism and historical baggage that goes along with the knitting comment, but I think is is important to note that telling the world that the generalized woman, i.e. all women, wouldn't be interested in or capable of digesting any kind of information, whether it is about poker or anything else, does a disservice to our gender. You may know specific cases in which your example is true, but as a woman I don't appreciate that kind of generalization being made about me.

Same point with the "frenimeis" thing. I have known people of both genders that seek out that kind of masochistic relationship or endeavor, and eventually most of them outgrow it since it seems to stem from a place of personal insecurity, not gender identity.

That all being said, if gender and poker is something you are interested in, I would like to hear your thoughts on a blog I recently wrote about poker and feminism. http://badatsports.com/2009/off-topic-shawnee-barton/ I wonder if you will have as strong of a reaction to my piece as I have had to yours.

hi Shawnee!
Glad you post here!

Very interesting article by Shawnee.

It's just so difficult, if you complain, things get tense, if you don't, you just get irritated. I don't play poker live but worked in a very male-orientated profession where I was forever a "girl" or the classic "I can't say what I would usually, there is a lady in the room". Geez, it would have been nice to be a person and not have to worry about my very presence making the men uncomfortable.

It's noticeable that often whenever women poker players are discussed on poker forums, there is usually a "would you?" or a comment about cleavage somewhere in there. Never seen that for any male player ever.

Frankly, I don't mind that but since you don't play cards with either your d1ck or your t1ts, why does it matter so much. I suppose it the fraternal, male environment thing and therefore, the article was very interesting to me. Well written!

Higher testosterone levels = more confidence and increased concentration.
Seems to be a mans world.