Agreed. I haven't played SNGs in a long time, but I've found that at 6.50s and 5.50s especially 45 man and 18 man SNGs, in the end game people don't call pushes light enough.

Great article and really true AFAIK.

Trying to be a "smart beginner" myself, and after struggling at NL2 and NL5 at Stars only to loose my initial $50 deposit (I think mainly because PS seems to hate me and I get so many bad beats, apart from my own dumbness), I've very recently switched to $5.50 6-max single table SnG's at FTP with incredible results (at least for me): a ROI of 57% after 11 entries.

I know it's a totally irrelevant quantity to draw any conclusions. However, I really feel I'm crushing the game for the 1st time in my 4-month poker career

Every point you make is really accurate. The thing that gave me most headaches at first was the fact that none of the players there have ever heard about c-bets, while in cash games it used to work nicely.

As for points #1 and #3, in my experience, no one never ever folds, so it's better to forget about semi-bluff c-bets and second barrels. Safest is wait to wait to hit on any street (guys are so passive that it's strange to be raised; but if you actually are raised don't be surprised to find out the villain holds only a middle pair, so if you get a top pair, go and call or raise), then take the dude to valuetown when you hit any better than second top pair; don't worry, they'll follow like lambs.

Never thought I'd be ever writing about strategy. Anyway, didn't want to steal the focus on your great article. So, in short, agreed!

I remember fondly being Mr #4

Great article. I'm just wondering if Vandweller is making distinctions in strategy between the number of players within a given micro SNG. For some reason, I personally have more success in the 18 player micro SNGs than any other form (i.e. 10, 27, 45, plus player field). I'm not quite sure why. In general I feel I have more time to be patient, and pick my spots in the 18 player SNGs at Stars, as players are more likely to implode and make mistakes in the early to mid levels.

Any feedback is appreciated.

Great article. I'm just wondering if Vandweller is making distinctions in strategy between the number of players within a given micro SNG.

Yeah I guess I am. I'm sort of old school in that the term "SNG" to me still means "single-table tournament," but to you whipper-snappers, i'm learning that it doesn't have to mean that at all.

I agree with this and I've played lots of micro sngs.

I'm new at deuces cracked and this is my first posting... don't know if you still answer questions in this thread... but I dont know where else to write.

You say: "In the early levels, don't bother stabbing at small pots if you miss. These players just aren't going to fold often enough, the immediate reward is too small for what you are risking, and you want to save enough chips for the massive future edges your opponents will offer. So if you raise preflop with AK and miss, just try to get to a cheap showdown and check-fold if you face a bet."

I play the $3.40 regular SNG's on pokerstar and I really often have problems with my AK/AQ in the early game (10/20 - 25/50 level). If I raise to 3-4BB's preflop and get one caller and I miss the flop (happens 70%). Should I then "never" c-bet the flop?? (let's say that I dont really know much about my opponent and therefore assume that he's and average player for this buy in).

I know, I think, more than the average microstakeplayer about the special SNG structure and how one should avoid confrontation in the early phase and try to protect ones equity in the tournament.

But obv I still dont know enough to figure this out myself :-)

I think you should save the c-bet on low levels. You will too often get multiple callers, including the blinds preflop in a $3.40 game, so I don't think firing a cbet is worth it at all post-flop. You'll probably be out of position too, at least I often am. If you brick the flop, live to play another day and just save the chips.

Although I would cbet boards that give you backdoor draws in addition to a turn or river overpair.

You are still the original raiser, so I think players will often let you see the turn for free anyway.
But the effectiveness of the cbet isn't really until around 25/50. Look for good spots in these levels and remember your position in these spots

Your question would fit well into the Tournament section. If you play SNG's, check out that part of the forum.

I really do not like the advice #1 and #2, maybe I am reading it wrong. It looks a bit like your saying we should be willing to go broke and throw tourney equity away as it will even itself out because of bad players.

Surely if we do this then everyone elses equity at the table shoots up so much that we are better off letting others make that mistake and increase our equity that way.

#4 seems be saying something along the lines of do not push too light as we are likely to get callers too often. If this is the case then it seems to be the reverse logic of #1 and #2.

I think the point I am trying to say is I do not think #1, #2 and #4 can all be right together. Yes I understand that #1 and #2 is based on them making a mistake by calling us too light, and that mistake will improve our chip stack enough. But will it really improve our equity in the tournament enough?

As for pushing light late, if they call too much they still lose in the long run surely?

shouldn't our main aim be to make it to the late stages first, and then push fold optimally so if they call either too much or too little they can not exploit us?

I

#4 seems be saying something along the lines of do not push too light as we are likely to get callers too often. If this is the case then it seems to be the reverse logic of #1 and #2.

I think the point I am trying to say is I do not think #1, #2 and #4 can all be right together.

Either I missed something really obvious or you did.

1. In the early levels, pot control goes out the window.
2. Be willing to get it all in early with AK

4. In the high-blind phase, respect the implosion factor

Hopefully that makes it more obvious. If not:

High-blind phase <> early levels

Completely different parts of the game. Saying that you should do something early in the SNG and something completely different in the late stages is not a contradiction. It couldn't be, we're talking about two COMPLETELY different phases of the game!

I agree with this point of view. There were a few times i double up on level 1 blinds with my AA or AK. I was all in on that stage with that cards.
I usually play very, very tight on early and middle early stage.

My question is reference to number 2. I would like an explanation about why it's a good decision to get ak in preflop early in these tourneys. even if they are calling you down with action like a7 and 77 i don't see how this is a good decision considering the equity risk. also even if against the large range that this player pool would have given a shove scenario are we talking about shoving on raisers or calling shoves to our raise. pardon the punctuation. i'm on my phone i

My question is reference to number 2. I would like an explanation about why it's a good decision to get ak in preflop early in these tourneys. even if they are calling you down with action like a7 and 77 i don't see how this is a good decision considering the equity risk. also even if against the large range that this player pool would have given a shove scenario are we talking about shoving on raisers or calling shoves to our raise. pardon the punctuation. i'm on my phone i

Let me give you an answer that is simpler than it is short.

Despite the oft-repeated advice to "play suuuuuuper-tight in the early rounds," the fact is that the first hand in a SNG is the time in the tournament when our bias against confrontation is at its least severe.

Let's say we are sitting in a cash game that is set up exactly like the first hand of a standard PokerStars 9-handed SNG. Blinds are 10/20 and everyone has 1500 stacks.

We are sitting in the big blind and someone open shoves his entire 75BB stack. How strong a hand do we need to call? Forgetting the slight discount we get for only having to call 74BB to match his 75BB, it would be any hand that has >50% showdown equity against whatever range he had.

Ok, let's say now it's the same stack and blind setup, the same open-shove, but now it's a STT. How strong a hand would we need now? Given how the ICM and pay structure shakes out, we would need a hand that has >54% showdown equity against out opponent's range.

So that means, compared to the cash scenario, we would call with the same range of hands MINUS those hands that had between 50% and 54% showdown equity.

That isn't that many hands.

If you matched up every hand with the other 168 possible hands, there are only a few matchups where one hand is between a 50% and a 54% preflop favorite, and which are therefore a cash game call but a STT fold. A good exercise would be to dink around with Poker Stove and try to find them.

So what's does this all add up to? Well, you can't just treat each individual hand as out-of-context and disconnected from everything else and play them the same way regardless of what else is going on at the table. All hands have a context, a part of which is your opponents' ranges, and ignoring that context means giving up profit.

There is nothing inherent in SNG poker that says "getting all-in preflop with AK is a losing proposition." Only your opponents' ranges make that true or false. If your opponents are playing wider ranges that means that YOU can and should play wider ranges. What those ranges are, that's up to you to determine given the tendencies and characteristics of the particular games, opponents, and levels you are playing.

All I am saying in the article is that the general character of these microstakes games is such that AK (as well as similar strength hands) is much more often going to be a safe bet all-in preflop because of the junk that players in them are going to show up with.

thanks for the reply

Great advice. I watched 3 SNG in a row I watched these players where they are shoving with AJo 66 and A3s. My question is why do players do this? Also wanted to note that all of them except the A3 shoved from early position.

Definitley going to try taking your advice on moving up quickly. I currently have 45 buyins for the $2 STT's. Would you still advice moving down to $30 buyins at the $3. I would appreciate some true advice. Please sharkscope me to tell me honestly what you think. Thanks.

Great article! Helped me alot.

hey there! i do think that what your saying as absolutely right. these adjustments can increase your roi at the micros. but surely you cannot consider going broke with jacks or ak in a 4 betted pot preflop?

Thought you'd like to know people are still finding this article and appreciating it. Very helpful.

Nice advices vand, keep writing about SNGs.

Is there any videos that u can watch which someone plays micro SnG's? preferably 6max.

Also i loved the article. Great work

Also how manny bb's is a good raise pre with the premium hands which u play? 4bb's?

The advice about nursing a stack late uis spot on in these low stakes games. I've been building a BR playing 2.20 90 man SNGs. It seems likes most of these beggining players know they need to be stealing late. The problem they run into is that they won't slow down when the player they've been picking on finally makes a stand. I consistently will keep letting a player on my left steal cause I know when I finally play back with a real hand, they will pay me off. It sounds counter intuitive to conciuosly let someone run over you, but the 4 or 5 blinds you give up is easily made up when they don't adjust. You don't need high variance shove's late if the player will pay off no matter how tight you've been playing. Also pay attention who your stealing from. When down to 18 to 20 in these 90 mans, I try not to steal from bottom 5 or top 3. It seems like these guys have the most gamble at this stage. Sounds easy enough, but I'm continually amazed when I see mid- stacks open shove with Ax or SPP and get snapped off. These kinds of plays might be neccessary in bigger buy INS with better players, but down here patience late seems to work better

Er.... I meant trapping players on my right obviously

Taking those early risks is also great advice. After seeing some of the hands prlayers are willing to go with early I won't hesitate to call all in with JJ-AK. I've read some posts where flolks tend to disagree, but I think you need to look at it from a multiple tourney perspective. You will run into hands that have you crushed, but the times you run into coin flips and smaller pairs and double or triple your stack make up for it. If I'm playing 3 90 man SNGs. At the same time andk have AK on the 1st hand at all 3 facing an all-in I'll call. Let's say I'm crushed agaist AA on one, flip agaist QQ on the 2nd and dominating AQs on the third. I'll gladly give the buy in on one for a big stack and a chance for a deep run on the others. If you play these micros enough your head will spin with the chances folks take early trying to luck into a big stack. I played one yesterday with 4 players in on the 2nd hand. In order of the shove: 77 33 AJo and 43s. These players are NOT uncommon at these stakes. If you have the proper BR, you can't be afraid of losing. If you don't take these stacks they'll be in mine when all these players are gone betting on 17 black cause it hasn't come up in 200 spins. It's due right?

Also how manny bb's is a good raise pre with the premium hands which u play? 4bb's?

Almost always 3BB if I'm opening.

Is there any videos that u can watch which someone plays micro SnG's? preferably 6max.

There are a few 6max SNG vids from bones and AMT. Don't know how micro they are.

Hello Mr. vandweller.
I know this is the wrong place to post,but i tried to cantact you with email at van@vandwellerpoker.com and vandweller@deucescracked.com and can't reach you.Also i tried to pm you at deucescracked.com and have written at your facebook ''wall'' but still can't seem to reach you.
Please get back at me at aoc_maya_rox@hotmail.com.Thnak you very much in advance and sorry for any inconvinience caused.

The only thing I wouldn't do is fall in love with a hand like AK or JJ preflop in the early stages IF the person you're stacking off with is playing tight/agressive. I just feel that especially the non-turbo 3.40's on stars are just so easy to float into the money by doing pretty much nothing and knowing when and who to push on when it gets shorthanded.

I miss vandweller

I miss vandweller

I was disappointed to see that he is no longer with DC. Really enjoyed his SnG videos.